Regarding the class not being on the list of ones to attend, I think there are a few other reasons than the one you subtly hint at. The first is that quite frankly, even for many people in the class (myself included), the material is sometimes over our heads. Additionally, we can all agree that this class is not representative of what most classes here are (whether this is a good thing is another topic). Clearly though, the actual content is a bit inflammatory, and could draw reactions; this is likely not something the admissions staff wants to risk. I for one find the class enjoyable and stimulating, but I don't think it warrants criticism of the admitted students program that our class wasn't included. Overall, I feel like perhaps there is a small amount of 'con' by not discussing the relative problems of the school, but in the end this seems harmless compared to the relative merits of the sale.

-- AaronShepard - 26 Mar 2009

Did others attend Admitted Students Day last year? In my experience the program is strictly tailored to selling students deciding between Columbia and NYU (to the point where the programs are scheduled on subsequent days).

Prof. Moglen today discussed California residents deciding between Columbia and public universities. I don't recall anyone asking or discussing this. Did anyone have this experience? As I remember it was heavily focused on promoting public interest work, to combat the widely held view that NYU is public-interest oriented and Columbia is Wall Street oriented.

I certainly don't remember anyone discussing the relative merits of going to law school at all or not.

Do others want to discuss or share their experiences from last year? For those this year -- what are you telling people to whom you are talking?

-- AndrewCase - 26 Mar 2009

I’ve been reading over the two sentences Molissa italicized and trying to make sense of them. I’m not sure that I can distinguish between the two ideas very easily (i.e., becoming something I can envision versus my true self). I think we define ourselves in part by what we can envision. And to a certain extent then, our “true selves” inherently include the idea that what we show to the world matters, as I think Veblen would agree. Instead, therefore, I propose that we talk about the ways in which we wish we could act, and then discuss the ways we actually act, and attempt to understand why they don’t overlap more often. Likewise, in thinking about law school generally, we can distinguish between the CLS experience that we’d hoped for and the one we’re experiencing.

On that note, like Helen I noticed that Eben’s class was not listed in the Admitted Students program. I found it interesting because when I visited classes at different schools last year, I found some of them to be excruciatingly bad, and noted the professor to myself as one to avoid if I attended that school. I wondered why the Admissions Offices would bother to list classes that would not depict the school in the best light in a program for Admitted Students. They certainly weren’t a selling point for the school. Looking down the list of classes that CLS did advertise to Admitted Students, I saw one elective in particular for which I’ve yet to hear a good review on the substance or style of the class.

"Prof. Moglen today discussed California residents deciding between Columbia and public universities. I don't recall anyone asking or discussing this. Did anyone have this experience?"

Well, that was me (along with a few other members of the class, I'm aware of). I believe Professor Moglen's statement is an oversimplification of the situation when deciding to choose between law schools. Columbia does not need to "con" people into thinking that it is somehow "superior" or "better" than these so called "public schools" to get them to pay extra tuition to come here. The reasons are as follows:

1. It is not necessarily true that a public CA school would be cheaper than Columbia Law School. Each school has different methodologies for awarding financial aid, and each school has different capabilities and priorities when choosing to award financial aid. In-state tuition will not necessarily compensate for a Columbia grant. Simply put, the main premise, that we are paying more for basically the same, is quite flawed.

2. Columbia itself is not fungible. Columbia is a unique law school. It is located in Upper West Side, NYC. I don't know of any public CA schools that are located in NYC. Columbia has people from all walks of the world. Public CA schools typically have an overwhelming majority of CA residents. There is definitely a different "diversity of thought" felt here than at many CA schools. Columbia has a unique alumni network, tradition, etc. that simply cannot be replicated in a CA public school (separate but equal...not.) Some people choose to attend because they enjoy the particulars of the law school, and not necessarily because they believe the cons perpetuated by the admins.

3. Columbia's students are similarly not fungible. This extends from point 2, but grows a bit beyond that. At most public CA schools, one will not find as many high LSAT/GPA students. What does this actually mean when it comes to student interaction? The real answer is, as much as law schools want it to mean. However, if law schools are correct in believing that these two numbers correlate with intelligence and success in the practice and learning of law (which is debatable and may be flawed), then here you will find a greater concentration of "intelligence." I agree this statement may be controversial, and I don't honestly subscribe to it, but it can easily be perceived as such by the similarly conflicted admit student.

I believe there are more reasons than the few enumerated ones I have provided above. But, I hope that I have addressed my thoughts on this point adequately.

-- AlexHu - 27 Mar 2009

I believe that your response is a bit misplaced as to what Eben said in class. Each of your reasons, while true in the narrow sense, doesn't really respond to the general proposition that, in Veblen's terms, many law students conspicuously waste large amounts of money by attending CLS when a public institution would provide a comparable education.

Sure, some students may receive grants from Columbia. But pointing out the exception doesn't help much; it might, in fact, strengthen the opposing position by admitting the general applicability of the initial proposition.

Indeed, there are no California schools in New York. But there are no New York schools in California either. UC-Boalt has its own unique alumni network and traditions as well. If we define admitted students' needs to be (1) attend an Upper West Side law school and (2) have connections to Columbia alumni, then yes they are getting exactly what they require. But the initial proposition indicates that future law students only need a good legal education. By purchasing a CLS degree, therefore, they conspicuously waste. I suppose there is room for argument as to whether attending school in NYC and being with over-achievers provides a better legal education than at Boalt.

But more importantly, assuming that students want to have powerful alumni connections, be in NYC, etc., I believe you actually validate Eben's comment. The reason that students want those features, originally, is that they demonstrate prowess and superiority over peers. In time, Veblen would say, the features themselves become highly valued, even though they do not meet the original need (receiving an adequate legal education).

-- KeithEdelman - 28 Mar 2009

A word of warning - I'm aware that what follows is both a personal interpretation and hyperbolic and is therefore not applicable to everyone.

Here's how I understood Eben's cryptic aphorism: The image of who you might be becoming is more important than the reality. You will become something you can envision rather than something you want to be. I think the key word here is "envision". It's as if we're striving for some ideal that isn't our own and we don't really understand but we can kind of visualize. Some sort of life where we wear the perfect suit and do big important things for big important clients. Perhaps Prof. Bobbit (for those of us that had him for Legal Methods) will introduce us to his class some day in the future: "Here is Patrick Cronin. He went to Columbia Law School. He was editor of the Law Review and graduated at the top of his class. He then went to work for... where he did really smart and important things". Perhaps this fuzzy image of what we could be is what Eben's mantra - "You have to know what you want, and how to get it" - is supposed to dispel. By coming here, we expose ourselves to the risk that we'll follow this mirage to god-knows-where, but if we went somewhere less prestigious we wouldn't have that opportunity and we could concentrate on what we want and how to get it.

The fuzzy image is certainly appealing to me - but from a purely practical perspective, I don't think that it does me any good. In fact, it mostly produces despair. I didn't go to Yale or Princeton, nor will I ever. My thesis was not directed by Richard Rorty. Charles Black was not my mentor. I'm already lagging far behind the image. But, if we do away with this image, then maybe we'll actually get down to doing something that has value in the world and is satisfying to us. I suppose that's why we need to clear ground before we can figure out what we each want to do.

-- TheodorBruening - 28 Mar 2009

The thread seems to be fracturing into different topics but I'll leave the re-org to someone else more wiki-competent than I.

As I understand Eben's message, he's cautioning us against complacency and adopting career goals that have been enticingly laid out before us (prestigious firm job, SCOTUS clerkship), as opposed to those borne out of serious introspection and innovation. In some sense, I believe Eben's asking us to drown out the 'job-recruiting noise' and think seriously about who we want to be (an image that is personal to us) and pursue it with passion, as opposed to embracing the blueprint that law school imposes on us. Doing otherwise will only lead to conformity and disappointment: