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FirmlyRefuse 15 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.LissetteDuran
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | -- SkylarPolansky - 17 Apr 2012 | |
<
< | CONFLICT original 12:
Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
CONFLICT version 13:
Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
CONFLICT version new:
Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents; they always have been unconditional in their love and support even. But they certainly have their own beliefs about what they think is best for me and how to get it. I have no doubt that my parents always had and have the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
CONFLICT end
I am not afraid to say that I will be doing EIP this summer.
The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it “is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor,” I am starting to believe it.
I have spent a lot of time working at big firms throughout my life. My interest in the law was actually cultivated through my experiences with people at these big firms. Through this, I have had the opportunity to meet many people--including people who favor the characters in our Lawyerland chapters. And I have had the time to accumulate the various reasons people use to work at firms and to figure out mine.
-- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012
I do not believe that the problem is working at a firm. The actual problem is not knowing what working at a firm means. For many it is enough to see the 160K in their contracts. There is no digging deeper into what they would have to do--the long hours, the hierarchy, the problematic cases, etc. If you decide that you want to go at it on your own, you would need to consider all of these factors. You would have to think deeply about what you want to do and how you want to do it. Thinking critically, of course, is the name of the game. The law firm option is easy because students do not actually think about what they want and approach it that way. If you know what you want to do and how you want to do it then I think the process becomes less soul-sucking.
The associates that I became really close with at these firms always had plans. They came into this process knowing exactly what they wanted to get out of the particular firm. As Agnes pointed out "the training" they wanted was not some sort of amorphous notion. They knew who they wanted to work with, on what kinds of cases, and on what types of assignments. Once they reached a point where their checklist was complete, they moved on to something that challenged them the way they wanted to be challenged.
I would not knock anyone for deciding to work at a firm. However, I do think that not caring about anything but the salary and the ranking on US News is not a good way to approach this process (I think it is the same of a person who works in the non-profit sector so that his/her loans were paid off and then switched to a firm so that he/she can enjoy the salary). But tying this back into the discussion about grades and the lack of teaching, it is difficult to figure out what you want to do and how you want to do it when there is no guidance. As Skylar pointed out, when there is no guidance, the goal becomes trying to keep doors open. And we are told that good grades keep doors open. It is simple math. But, I do think that we have come to a point where we need to be more strategic about the doors we want opened. | >
> | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: education is the key to all success; coupled with these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have. In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just keeping doors open and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern. | | | | |
>
> | The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor; I am starting to believe it. | | | | |
<
< | We should be working on becoming better informed. We should not be making hasty decisions about our next steps. | >
> | -- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012 |
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FirmlyRefuse 14 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.ElviraKras
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | -- SkylarPolansky - 17 Apr 2012 | |
>
> | CONFLICT original 12:
Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
CONFLICT version 13: | | | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern. | |
>
> | CONFLICT version new:
Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents; they always have been unconditional in their love and support even. But they certainly have their own beliefs about what they think is best for me and how to get it. I have no doubt that my parents always had and have the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
CONFLICT end | | | I am not afraid to say that I will be doing EIP this summer.
The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it “is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor,” I am starting to believe it. |
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FirmlyRefuse 13 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.LissetteDuran
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | -- SkylarPolansky - 17 Apr 2012 | |
<
< | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it “is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor,” I am starting to believe it.
-- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012 | >
> | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
I am not afraid to say that I will be doing EIP this summer.
The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it “is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor,” I am starting to believe it.
I have spent a lot of time working at big firms throughout my life. My interest in the law was actually cultivated through my experiences with people at these big firms. Through this, I have had the opportunity to meet many people--including people who favor the characters in our Lawyerland chapters. And I have had the time to accumulate the various reasons people use to work at firms and to figure out mine.
-- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012
I do not believe that the problem is working at a firm. The actual problem is not knowing what working at a firm means. For many it is enough to see the 160K in their contracts. There is no digging deeper into what they would have to do--the long hours, the hierarchy, the problematic cases, etc. If you decide that you want to go at it on your own, you would need to consider all of these factors. You would have to think deeply about what you want to do and how you want to do it. Thinking critically, of course, is the name of the game. The law firm option is easy because students do not actually think about what they want and approach it that way. If you know what you want to do and how you want to do it then I think the process becomes less soul-sucking.
The associates that I became really close with at these firms always had plans. They came into this process knowing exactly what they wanted to get out of the particular firm. As Agnes pointed out "the training" they wanted was not some sort of amorphous notion. They knew who they wanted to work with, on what kinds of cases, and on what types of assignments. Once they reached a point where their checklist was complete, they moved on to something that challenged them the way they wanted to be challenged. | | | | |
>
> | I would not knock anyone for deciding to work at a firm. However, I do think that not caring about anything but the salary and the ranking on US News is not a good way to approach this process (I think it is the same of a person who works in the non-profit sector so that his/her loans were paid off and then switched to a firm so that he/she can enjoy the salary). But tying this back into the discussion about grades and the lack of teaching, it is difficult to figure out what you want to do and how you want to do it when there is no guidance. As Skylar pointed out, when there is no guidance, the goal becomes trying to keep doors open. And we are told that good grades keep doors open. It is simple math. But, I do think that we have come to a point where we need to be more strategic about the doors we want opened. | | | | |
>
> | We should be working on becoming better informed. We should not be making hasty decisions about our next steps. |
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FirmlyRefuse 12 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.ElviraKras
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | -- SkylarPolansky - 17 Apr 2012 | |
>
> | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: “education is the key to all success” coupled with “these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have.” In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just “keeping doors open” and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it “is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor,” I am starting to believe it.
-- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012 | | |
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FirmlyRefuse 11 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.SkylarPolansky
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | But this may not be a bad thing. If we don't care about grades, and we have the opportunity to pick our own classes, clinics, seminars, etc, then maybe we will have the opportunity to get the experience we SHOULD be getting out of law school. Maybe we'll be able to focus on doing the work we want to do and learning the things we want to learn. That's what I'm HOPING will happen to me as a 2L and 3L, but I know that pressure to take courses like Corporations, Admin Law, Taxation, etc will crowd out a lot of room for studying what I really want to study, and I may just end up in classes that I don't care about. Hopefully we will all be able to strike a balance.
-- JasonPyke - 17 Apr 2012 | |
>
> | As a child growing up in a single-mom, Jewish household, the message was loud and clear that the signaling factor grades/standardized tests provide are what matter - high school grades and SAT's will open the door to a good college, college grades and LSATs will open the door to a good law school, 1L law school grades will open the door to a good job afterwards, a good job will open all the other doors I could possibly want. But here I am, almost at the end of the hallway, and I've completely lost my steam. I constantly find myself thinking "when will it be enough? When will I walk through the last door?"
Today Ben roughly said (Ben - please correct me if I misquoted)"We keep striving for good grades so as to keep all our doors open." I realized what actually scares me is not having some of those doors start to close. I've become so focused on walking into a room full of open doors that I stopped looking for the door to my home. I've become so swept up in making sure all my options are open it's become much too long since I stopped to think about what option I want to be open. It's an injustice I've done to myself.
In the beginning I thought this class was supposed to be about looking for injustice in the rest of society, and I thought I was being selfish for concentrating so much on myself, and relating our readings to my experiences. At a point I stopped berating myself and let the class be about the injustice I feel I've experienced, how I've been complicit, and how to fix it. I am incredibly grateful because Professor Moglen has made me realize I've opened enough doors for myself at this point, and it's time to start re-focusing my attention and effort on picking the right door. Agnes I find your confidence in yourself encouraging, inspiring, and beautiful. I too entered law school after spending a number of years working at a Big Law firm - thus I entered knowing I don't want to work at a Big Law firm after school. But I still got swept up in the focus on grades and keeping my options open. I am trying now to re-focus my attention on creating a plan for myself where I can pay back my loans while simultaneously doing sidework that puts me in a good position to start the type of practice I want to start after leaving a job that pays my bills. Similarly, I am trying to approach this semester with the same mentality - I haven't totally shed my anxiety about grades and I am going to try to do well this semester, but I'm trying to focus more on learning who I need to meet and make a connection with next year so that I may sail my own ship.
-- SkylarPolansky - 17 Apr 2012
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