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FirmlyRefuse 20 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.ElviraKras
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | Elvira, I had to reformat your post because I think we were editing at the same time. Check it to make sure that I did not take anything out--Lissette | |
>
> | Looks good, thank you Lissette! -- Elvira | | | -- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012
I am not afraid to say that I will be doing EIP this summer. (I am sure many of you guys are too). |
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FirmlyRefuse 19 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.LissetteDuran
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | I would not knock anyone for deciding to work at a firm. However, I do think that not caring about anything but the salary and the ranking on US News is not a good way to approach this process (I think it is the same of a person who works in the non-profit sector so that his/her loans were paid off and then switched to a firm so that he/she can enjoy the salary). But tying this back into the discussion about grades and the lack of teaching, it is difficult to figure out what you want to do and how you want to do it when there is no guidance. As Skylar pointed out, when there is no guidance, the goal becomes trying to keep doors open. And we are told that good grades keep doors open. It is simple math. But, I do think that we have come to a point where we need to be more strategic about the doors we want opened. | |
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< | We should be working on becoming better informed. We should not be making hasty decisions about our next steps. | >
> | We should be working on becoming better informed. Better informed means knowing what grades mean to you; what you want from a class; what you want from a particular professor; and what you want to do once you leave CLS. It all takes time to figure out. But we have to take that time. We should not be making hasty decisions about our next steps. |
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FirmlyRefuse 18 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.ElviraKras
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | -- SkylarPolansky - 17 Apr 2012 | |
<
< | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: education is the key to all success; coupled with these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have. In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just keeping doors open and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern. | >
> | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: "education is the key to all success," coupled with, "these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have." In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had and have the best intentions in pushing me to do my best, but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just keeping doors open and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern. | | | | |
<
< | The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more feelings approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor; I am starting to believe it. | >
> | The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more feelings approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says "it is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor," I am starting to believe it. | | | Elvira, I had to reformat your post because I think we were editing at the same time. Check it to make sure that I did not take anything out--Lissette |
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FirmlyRefuse 17 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.LissetteDuran
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | -- SkylarPolansky - 17 Apr 2012 | |
<
< | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: education is the key to all success; coupled with these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have. In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just keeping doors open and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
I am not afraid to say that I will be doing EIP this summer.
The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor; I am starting to believe it.
I have spent a lot of time working at big firms throughout my life. My interest in the law was actually cultivated through my experiences with people at these big firms. Through this, I have had the opportunity to meet many people--including people who favor the characters in our Lawyerland chapters. And I have had the time to accumulate the various reasons people use to work at firms and to figure out mine.
-- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012
I do not believe that the problem is working at a firm. The actual problem is not knowing what working at a firm means. For many it is enough to see the 160K in their contracts. There is no digging deeper into what they would have to do--the long hours, the hierarchy, the problematic cases, etc. If you decide that you want to go at it on your own, you would need to consider all of these factors. You would have to think deeply about what you want to do and how you want to do it. Thinking critically, of course, is the name of the game. The law firm option is easy because students do not actually think about what they want and approach it that way. If you know what you want to do and how you want to do it then I think the process becomes less soul-sucking.
| >
> | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: education is the key to all success; coupled with these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have. In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just keeping doors open and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more feelings approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor; I am starting to believe it.
Elvira, I had to reformat your post because I think we were editing at the same time. Check it to make sure that I did not take anything out--Lissette
-- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012
I am not afraid to say that I will be doing EIP this summer. (I am sure many of you guys are too).
I have spent a lot of time working at big firms throughout my life. My interest in the law was actually cultivated through my experiences with people at these big firms. Through this, I have had the opportunity to meet many people--including people who favor the characters in our Lawyerland chapters. And I have had the time to accumulate the various reasons people use to work at firms and to figure out mine.
I do not believe that the problem is working at a firm. The actual problem is not knowing what working at a firm means. For many it is enough to see the 160K in their contracts. There is no digging deeper into what they would have to do--the long hours, the hierarchy, the problematic cases, etc. If you decide that you want to go at it on your own, you would need to consider all of these factors. You would have to think deeply about what you want to do and how you want to do it. Thinking critically, of course, is the name of the game. The law firm option is easy because students do not actually think about what they want and approach it that way. If you know what you want to do and how you want to do it then I think the process becomes less soul-sucking. | | | The associates that I became really close with at these firms always had plans. They came into this process knowing exactly what they wanted to get out of the particular firm. As Agnes pointed out "the training" they wanted was not some sort of amorphous notion. They knew who they wanted to work with, on what kinds of cases, and on what types of assignments. Once they reached a point where their checklist was complete, they moved on to something that challenged them the way they wanted to be challenged.
I would not knock anyone for deciding to work at a firm. However, I do think that not caring about anything but the salary and the ranking on US News is not a good way to approach this process (I think it is the same of a person who works in the non-profit sector so that his/her loans were paid off and then switched to a firm so that he/she can enjoy the salary). But tying this back into the discussion about grades and the lack of teaching, it is difficult to figure out what you want to do and how you want to do it when there is no guidance. As Skylar pointed out, when there is no guidance, the goal becomes trying to keep doors open. And we are told that good grades keep doors open. It is simple math. But, I do think that we have come to a point where we need to be more strategic about the doors we want opened. |
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FirmlyRefuse 16 - 18 Apr 2012 - Main.ElviraKras
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| | I found this campaign (http://firmlyrefuse.tumblr.com) at Harvard to get students to think about why they are choosing to work for firms to be interesting, particularly given the themes of this course and our conversation today about grades.
Grades for me have served to stand-in for concerted thought as to what I'm actually doing here. I have convinced myself that if my grades are good enough, I'll have options because a strong transcript resonates across different realms of employment (this is essentially the point Ben made today about the fear of having paths foreclosed). No matter what it is actually decide I want to do with my practice, I consoled myself that having a strong strong transcript wouldn't be a detriment. Probably that's true, at least in bureaucratic employment fields where such factors matter, but focusing on grades has meant that I've spent little time thinking about my purpose in earning this license. This makes it more likely that I'll funnel into EIP, because it's easy and because I haven't really thought about what I would do instead. Grades aren't the only reason I haven't set about designing an alternative, but they are a part of it. | | | -- SkylarPolansky - 17 Apr 2012 | |
<
< | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: education is the key to all success; coupled with these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have. In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just keeping doors open and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern. | >
> | Skylar, your comments about the kind of household you grew up in absolutely resonated with me. Coming from a Jewish household of immigrant parents the message always was: education is the key to all success; coupled with these are the sacrifices that have been made so you can take advantage of the opportunities that we did not have. In no way do I want to defame or blame my parents. I have no doubt that my parents always had the best intentions in pushing me to do my best but I think part of what happens, at least for me, it that is has ceased to be about just keeping doors open and more about equating value, self worth, success, and accomplishment with grades. If for your whole life you get a pat on the back or a congratulations when you get an A and if you get a disappointed lecture when a minus pops up by that A, or worse yet, drops to a B, I am no psychologist but I think that starts an associative pattern.
I am not afraid to say that I will be doing EIP this summer.
The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor; I am starting to believe it.
I have spent a lot of time working at big firms throughout my life. My interest in the law was actually cultivated through my experiences with people at these big firms. Through this, I have had the opportunity to meet many people--including people who favor the characters in our Lawyerland chapters. And I have had the time to accumulate the various reasons people use to work at firms and to figure out mine.
-- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012
I do not believe that the problem is working at a firm. The actual problem is not knowing what working at a firm means. For many it is enough to see the 160K in their contracts. There is no digging deeper into what they would have to do--the long hours, the hierarchy, the problematic cases, etc. If you decide that you want to go at it on your own, you would need to consider all of these factors. You would have to think deeply about what you want to do and how you want to do it. Thinking critically, of course, is the name of the game. The law firm option is easy because students do not actually think about what they want and approach it that way. If you know what you want to do and how you want to do it then I think the process becomes less soul-sucking.
The associates that I became really close with at these firms always had plans. They came into this process knowing exactly what they wanted to get out of the particular firm. As Agnes pointed out "the training" they wanted was not some sort of amorphous notion. They knew who they wanted to work with, on what kinds of cases, and on what types of assignments. Once they reached a point where their checklist was complete, they moved on to something that challenged them the way they wanted to be challenged.
I would not knock anyone for deciding to work at a firm. However, I do think that not caring about anything but the salary and the ranking on US News is not a good way to approach this process (I think it is the same of a person who works in the non-profit sector so that his/her loans were paid off and then switched to a firm so that he/she can enjoy the salary). But tying this back into the discussion about grades and the lack of teaching, it is difficult to figure out what you want to do and how you want to do it when there is no guidance. As Skylar pointed out, when there is no guidance, the goal becomes trying to keep doors open. And we are told that good grades keep doors open. It is simple math. But, I do think that we have come to a point where we need to be more strategic about the doors we want opened. | | | | |
<
< | The other dilemma I have found myself facing is how to know when you are doing your best and getting a certain grade perhaps versus when you are doing average work and getting average grades. Often enough the correlation is correct, when I do really good work I get a grade that is considered really good. I think I am learning that it is time to shift the focus from extrinsic motivation and validation to a more “feelings” approach- doing what feels good, what you enjoy doing and relying on your own intuition of when you are doing your best work. I think it is not so much the value that firms or future employers place on our grades that makes us cling to the very rod that oppresses us, but rather, it is the fact that for so long we have defined ourselves by those very grades. Now that I listen to what everyone else has said in class, more and more I think that the law firm is not the opportunity that my parents were talking about I can do better for myself than that- when Eben says it is not worth what they will make you spend in blood and honor; I am starting to believe it. | | | | |
<
< | -- ElviraKras - 18 Apr 2012 | >
> | We should be working on becoming better informed. We should not be making hasty decisions about our next steps. |
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