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| | P: No, it’s not about that. You just have to treat family members in a different way than you treat others. It’s just the way things work. I can’t explain it. You’ll understand when you have children. |
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< | Is there any context or background to these conversations. It may be helpful, at the least for the white supremest to try to derive it from a source or something similar, giving it more weight. And for the family, it would be difficult to have a source for that, but if you have something from your own personal experience that is similar, it can give it more meaning as well as make a stronger connection to the reader. |
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> | Is there any context or background to these conversations. It may be helpful, at the least for the white supremest to try to derive it from a source or something similar, giving it more weight. And for the family, it would be difficult to have a source for that, but if you have something from your own personal experience that is similar, it can give it more meaning as well as make a stronger connection to the reader. I'll hunt around for some source material for the race conversation. For the family one, I really don't think it is disputable that parents will make sacrifices (both financial and otherwise) for their own children that they wouldn't make for others. |
| | Value Groups |
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< | The above conversations are not exactly the same, but they do share a key feature. Both situations involve an individual who places different values on people based on whether or not they are members of the individual’s group. The white supremacist tries to give other reasons for the different value he places on whites and blacks, but in the end has to admit it is simply about blackness and whiteness.
"blackness and whiteness" is awkward sounding and loses impact |
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> | The above conversations are not exactly the same, but they do share a key feature. Both situations involve an individual who places different values on people based on whether or not they are members of the individual’s group. The white supremacist tries to give other reasons for the different value he places on whites and blacks, but in the end has to admit it is simply about their status as either blacks or whites.
"blackness and whiteness" is awkward sounding and loses impact Any better? |
| | The parent readily admits that she values her child more than the neighbor for the simple reason that the child is a family member. Both the parent and the white supremacist have constructed what I will call a value group, a group whose members the individual values more highly than those outside the group.
Is Familyism any better than racism? |
| | In its effects?
When it comes to comparing the effects of racism with the effects of “familyism”, there appears to be a significant difference. Racism has a long history of causing violence and genocide. This is not true for familyism. Furthermore, one can safely assume that a nation divided into just a couple of race-based value groups is more inherently unstable than one which divides itself into a hundred million kinship-based ones. There have been some family feuds with tragic consequences, but none of them compare to the Civil War. |
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< | This seems rather obvious. Ignoring family feuds, which has been relegated to history and certain stereotypes, no one would argue that familyism would lead to the same results as racism. One problem to me that needs to be resolved is that attitude towards those outside the value group are radically different. While one may have a strong, natural preference for those belonging to one's family, they do not in general have hatred to the outsider. This is very different from racism, so it seems somewhat like comparing apples and oranges.
In addition, what should we imply from this. Is there a range of divisions that is good for a nation. If we agree that a nation divided by a couple of racial groups tends to result in conflict, then is it better for nations to be more homogeneous (a solitary racial identity) or should we encourage greater heterogeneity? Is this what you want your topic to imply? |
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> | This seems rather obvious. Ignoring family feuds, which has been relegated to history and certain stereotypes, no one would argue that familyism would lead to the same results as racism. One problem to me that needs to be resolved is that attitude towards those outside the value group are radically different. While one may have a strong, natural preference for those belonging to one's family, they do not in general have hatred to the outsider. This is very different from racism, so it seems somewhat like comparing apples and oranges. I think I look at it in a more relative way. In both familyism and racism, the individual views members of their group MORE positively than they view non-members. Whether the difference is between love and neutrality (as with familyism), or neutrality and hatred (as in racism), there is still a relative difference in how people view members of their group versus non-members.
In addition, what should we imply from this. Is there a range of divisions that is good for a nation. If we agree that a nation divided by a couple of racial groups tends to result in conflict, then is it better for nations to be more homogeneous (a solitary racial identity) or should we encourage greater heterogeneity? Is this what you want your topic to imply? No, I think my real point is that familyism and racism are essentially the same thing: prioritizing members of your group for the simple reason that they are in your group. |
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Furthermore, the creation of the kinship-based value group provides the world with a great deal of “good” things.
Probably a better way to rephrase.
It would be tougher for children to survive to adulthood if their parents did not show them any special preference. |
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< | Others could argue differently. Maybe many problems result from abiding to the traditional family structure, and that society would be better if we had a more communal family structure, as exposed by certain Marxist philosophies (possibly seen in the old kibbutz system of Israel) and Plato's "The Republic." |
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> | Others could argue differently. Maybe many problems result from abiding to the traditional family structure, and that society would be better if we had a more communal family structure, as exposed by certain Marxist philosophies (possibly seen in the old kibbutz system of Israel) and Plato's "The Republic." I think that is a very interesting point. However, if people stopped being familyist, ceteris paribus, I think children's welfare would likely take a hit. |
| | Additionally, familial love and support is something that often makes people happier. Indeed, for many, spending time with family members brings them unparalleled joy. There is no evidence that racism either saves lives or significantly increases human happiness. |
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< | This is a blanket statement. There are arguments that forms of racism can save lives. This is demonstrated by the present debate concerning racial profiling, which does contain inherent characteristics of racism. Think South Park episode where Cartman's racism ends up saving the town from a nuclear bomb. |
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> | This is a blanket statement. There are arguments that forms of racism can save lives. This is demonstrated by the present debate concerning racial profiling, which does contain inherent characteristics of racism. Think South Park episode where Cartman's racism ends up saving the town from a nuclear bomb. I like the reference, but I think that is a slightly different situation. While racial profiling might often be motivated by racism, I don't think it necessarily is racism. For instance, racial profiling in the airport, regardless of whether you agree with it or not, is not theoretically based on the view that people of middle eastern descent are inherently inferior. Rather, it is based on the belief that they are more likely to be engaged in terrorism. |
| | But, the effects of familyism may not be all good. The family likely serves as an obstacle to social justice. As in the conversation above, familyism leads parents to spend money on their own child rather than on one who may be in greater need. That being said, it is at least an arguable assertion that benefits of familyism (the joy of familial love and increased chances of infant survival) outweigh its costs (inequality). The same is not true for racism. |
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< | How do you reach this conclusion. Do families really spend all their money on their own. In reality, families seem to be a strong source of donations through religion, schools, and charities. And shouldn't we expect families to devote most of their resources to their own. Also, the ideal behind the progressive income tax system does contain some of the redistributive elements you believe are lacking. |
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> | How do you reach this conclusion. Do families really spend all their money on their own. No, they don't spend all their money on their own, but they are more willing to spend money on their own than they are on others. In reality, families seem to be a strong source of donations through religion, schools, and charities. And shouldn't we expect families to devote most of their resources to their own. Only if we accept familyism. Also, the ideal behind the progressive income tax system does contain some of the redistributive elements you believe are lacking. Right, but isn't this system only necessary because of familyism? |
| | In its principles?
However, as a society, we do not abhor racism solely because of its negative consequences. Rather, we view any value judgments based on race to be a "bad" within and of themselves. |
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< | Do we necessarily? What about value judgments we make and implement for the supposed benefit of certain racial groups. The biggest example would be affirmative action. |
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> | Do we necessarily? What about value judgments we make and implement for the supposed benefit of certain racial groups. The biggest example would be affirmative action. I think the reason affirmative action is so controversial is the fact that we view value judgements based on race to be bad within themselves. |
| | When Dr. King hoped that his children would “not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character,” he was asserting that an American principle of equality meant that people should not be valued based on the groups they are in, but as individuals. That people should be valued as individuals is a principle that profoundly influences both our social and legal philosophies. Familyism violates it just as much as racism does. |
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< | One thing that needs to be addressed is what is the main thing you want to drive at and how does your comparison get you there. The reader will presume that you are comparing two things that can't really be compared. So one thing that has to be done is to add strength to your justification of why you are doing the comparison. What may help is including what you want the reader to see through the comparison. Should we try to change the traditional family structure? Should we make racial identity more like kinship (refer back to my comments in the effects section)? You may not necessarily need to lead the reader to a particular conclusion, but would possibly need to expand on your comparisons a bit so that the reader can create his own informed conclusions through your paper. I will attempt to do my edit, but it would be helpful if you could respond to these comments so that my edit can better maintain your intentions and ideas. Thanks. |
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> | One thing that needs to be addressed is what is the main thing you want to drive at and how does your comparison get you there. The reader will presume that you are comparing two things that can't really be compared. So one thing that has to be done is to add strength to your justification of why you are doing the comparison. What may help is including what you want the reader to see through the comparison. Should we try to change the traditional family structure? Should we make racial identity more like kinship (refer back to my comments in the effects section)? You may not necessarily need to lead the reader to a particular conclusion, but would possibly need to expand on your comparisons a bit so that the reader can create his own informed conclusions through your paper. I will attempt to do my edit, but it would be helpful if you could respond to these comments so that my edit can better maintain your intentions and ideas. Thanks. I think the point of my essay is basically this: both racism and familyism involve prioritizing those within your group over those outside of it for no reason other than the simple fact that they are in your group. However, we view racism as bad and familyism as good, which strikes me as an inconsistent set of positions to take. David, I really appreciate the time you're taking with this. I think you've really helped me to figure out what I was driving at. |