Law in Contemporary Society

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LawSchoolAdvice 10 - 18 Feb 2010 - Main.StephenSevero
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 Before coming to law school, I received two pieces of advice from coworkers about how to "succeed" at Columbia Law School. I found both of these to be really troubling and upsetting. I also think that they demonstrate attitudes that are indicative of some of the problems with the current law school set up and the reasons that people feel the need/desire to pawn their degrees. I figured this would be a good place to discuss them, hear what other people think about them and hear advice that others received before coming to law school.

The first piece of advice that I got was to go into each of my first year classes on the first day with one thing in mind - the exam. All of my work should be geared to "acing" the exam. I should read prior exams/outlines before coming to class to get an idea of what the professor covered on exams (black letter law, policy, etc.) and focus only on learning these things.

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 The advice I got going into law school is the same advice I got going into college and high school before that: the harder you work, the better your grades. Still holds.

-- AerinMiller - 17 Feb 2010

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I don't want this to come across as an attack, but I take great issue with your statement, Aerin. At best it's a meaningless tautology and at worst it's a recipe for exactly the type of "fear and anxiety" that plagues us. Grades are not some quantitative indicator of effort expended. In fact, Moglen seems to be the only professor here who claims to base some of the grade on "effort" rather than strictly on end product. True, to a certain extent some people with less than stellar grades could improve those grades by putting in more work, but this is certainly not axiomatically true. As a tautology, if a student isn't trying, then trying will likely increase his grade - so long as other students don't "work harder" and keep him at the same point on the curve. And the curve is where the real danger of this statement comes in. Does the A- student "work harder" than the B+ student? It would be absurd to say yes. I know plenty of students who worked like dogs and got lower grades than students who, relatively speaking, coasted. If a student took this statement to heart, I could only see it leading to self-destruction. At some point, extra study hours have a negative value. Our brains, like our muscles or pretty much anything, can break down if pushed too hard. The B student doesn't just need to "work harder" any more than the man with the underwater mortgage needed to "be smarter".

-- StephenSevero - 18 Feb 2010

 
 
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LawSchoolAdvice 9 - 17 Feb 2010 - Main.AerinMiller
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 Before coming to law school, I received two pieces of advice from coworkers about how to "succeed" at Columbia Law School. I found both of these to be really troubling and upsetting. I also think that they demonstrate attitudes that are indicative of some of the problems with the current law school set up and the reasons that people feel the need/desire to pawn their degrees. I figured this would be a good place to discuss them, hear what other people think about them and hear advice that others received before coming to law school.

The first piece of advice that I got was to go into each of my first year classes on the first day with one thing in mind - the exam. All of my work should be geared to "acing" the exam. I should read prior exams/outlines before coming to class to get an idea of what the professor covered on exams (black letter law, policy, etc.) and focus only on learning these things.

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-- SuzanneSciarra - 17 Feb 2010

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The advice I got going into law school is the same advice I got going into college and high school before that: the harder you work, the better your grades. Still holds.

-- AerinMiller - 17 Feb 2010

 
 
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LawSchoolAdvice 8 - 17 Feb 2010 - Main.SuzanneSciarra
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 Before coming to law school, I received two pieces of advice from coworkers about how to "succeed" at Columbia Law School. I found both of these to be really troubling and upsetting. I also think that they demonstrate attitudes that are indicative of some of the problems with the current law school set up and the reasons that people feel the need/desire to pawn their degrees. I figured this would be a good place to discuss them, hear what other people think about them and hear advice that others received before coming to law school.

The first piece of advice that I got was to go into each of my first year classes on the first day with one thing in mind - the exam. All of my work should be geared to "acing" the exam. I should read prior exams/outlines before coming to class to get an idea of what the professor covered on exams (black letter law, policy, etc.) and focus only on learning these things.

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 I have heard this advice too and my experience last semester seems to suggest it is accurate. I think another problem not mentioned yet is that if we take the advice and either key in only on what the professor likes to ask about on exams or disengage from the material (as some 2Ls suggest) in order to get better grades, we may be disadvantaging our clients later.

-- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010

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I got very similar advice coming into law school as well, and I agree with what has been said so far. I think what everyone forgot to tell us is that we are disadvantaging ourselves by simply focusing on the exams and the grades. I agree that that is a terrible way to learn. As was mentioned in class, law school is as much about the means and the process of learning as it is about the ends. I am not denigrating how difficult it is to forget about the “end”, the goal of getting a job and security, or finding something you are passionate about. That is very difficult to do in this environment, both because of the actual institution of law school and our own internal fears and anxieties. (see thread) Law school, though, should be on many levels an intellectual experience for ourselves. I think in the end we will learn the material much better, and be able to assist our clients at a higher level, if we are intellectually engaged with it now, rather than viewing it through the lens of our upcoming exam or the newest commercial study guide.

As Professor Moglen pointed out, “You aren’t selling your grades, you are selling your judgment.” Knowing what we do now after our first set of exams, are there things that people are doing differently in learning the material for the second term, or that have changed your attitudes at all towards law school in this short time? Are there ways that people have found to balance what the teacher wants and what they find interesting?

-- SuzanneSciarra - 17 Feb 2010

 
 
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LawSchoolAdvice 7 - 15 Feb 2010 - Main.RobLaser
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 Before coming to law school, I received two pieces of advice from coworkers about how to "succeed" at Columbia Law School. I found both of these to be really troubling and upsetting. I also think that they demonstrate attitudes that are indicative of some of the problems with the current law school set up and the reasons that people feel the need/desire to pawn their degrees. I figured this would be a good place to discuss them, hear what other people think about them and hear advice that others received before coming to law school.

The first piece of advice that I got was to go into each of my first year classes on the first day with one thing in mind - the exam. All of my work should be geared to "acing" the exam. I should read prior exams/outlines before coming to class to get an idea of what the professor covered on exams (black letter law, policy, etc.) and focus only on learning these things.

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 I've also heard of the exam focus strategy and read a lot of material on how to accomplish this, usually centered on taking practice exams and learning how to write an A exam through some combination of Getting to Maybe, reading model answers, LEEWS, etc. Some advocate complete disengagement with the casebooks/in-class material by simply learning the material out of supplements or canned briefs, a strategy that appeals to me as I find myself unable to keep up detailed notes (the sound of fingers on keypads during class sometimes reaches dull roar level). I think a lot of this disengagement results from the way our classes are structured (Socratic method, lecture, diverse topics, no feedback during the semester). Professors have the same teaching methods and style from week one all the way to week 14- some of the material we're learning late in the semester may not even build on anything previously covered. Some professors are trying to tweak this system- I had one professor assign us to summary judgment motions and complaints to draft (which I thought was very helpful), and I've heard other professors do written assignments/midterms, but I haven't seen a concerted effort to try and revamp teaching styles.

-- JonathanWaisnor - 04 Feb 2010

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I have heard this advice too and my experience last semester seems to suggest it is accurate. I think another problem not mentioned yet is that if we take the advice and either key in only on what the professor likes to ask about on exams or disengage from the material (as some 2Ls suggest) in order to get better grades, we may be disadvantaging our clients later.

-- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010

 
 
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LawSchoolAdvice 6 - 11 Feb 2010 - Main.RorySkaggs
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 Before coming to law school, I received two pieces of advice from coworkers about how to "succeed" at Columbia Law School. I found both of these to be really troubling and upsetting. I also think that they demonstrate attitudes that are indicative of some of the problems with the current law school set up and the reasons that people feel the need/desire to pawn their degrees. I figured this would be a good place to discuss them, hear what other people think about them and hear advice that others received before coming to law school.

The first piece of advice that I got was to go into each of my first year classes on the first day with one thing in mind - the exam. All of my work should be geared to "acing" the exam. I should read prior exams/outlines before coming to class to get an idea of what the professor covered on exams (black letter law, policy, etc.) and focus only on learning these things.

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 If what it really takes to do extremely well (aka Stone Scholar) at Columbia is to focus one's energies solely on the exams throughout the semester, use other people's outlines, etc...I think we truly have a serious problem. That means that the top-performing students are in some ways the least creative and most risk-averse. If it's true, such honors shouldn't be honors at all.

-- JessicaCohen - 10 Feb 2010

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 Hey David, I received very similar advices. I think all these advices are geared toward one thing, to get one step ahead of others on the 1L curve. We have very limited time, 14 weeks of classes, and yet we have tremendous amount of work. If you spend more time on what interests you the most, you will likely spend less time on what interests the professor the most. I think the real problem is that we are still adjusting to the “how to think like a lawyer” and this is why these advices are all based on the assumption that we cannot learn what the professor wants to teach us and pursue our own interests at the same time. The bottom line is that the professor writes the exam however he/she likes and grades the exams however he/she likes. I am actually very intrigued by what Professor Moglen said in class on Tuesday, just have no first year grades and give students more time to adjust. This way you don’t have to refrain from spending more time on topics that interest you. However, this will definitely create chaos for the employers during EIP. We just have to face the truth that the purpose of grades is probably more for the convenience of employers than for providing feedbacks to the students. Now transition to what really bothers me about law school is that professors do not have to provide mandatory feedbacks to the students. How are we supposed to improve if we don’t even know what we did wrong? How can we become better lawyers without knowing how to improve?
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 I've also heard of the exam focus strategy and read a lot of material on how to accomplish this, usually centered on taking practice exams and learning how to write an A exam through some combination of Getting to Maybe, reading model answers, LEEWS, etc. Some advocate complete disengagement with the casebooks/in-class material by simply learning the material out of supplements or canned briefs, a strategy that appeals to me as I find myself unable to keep up detailed notes (the sound of fingers on keypads during class sometimes reaches dull roar level). I think a lot of this disengagement results from the way our classes are structured (Socratic method, lecture, diverse topics, no feedback during the semester). Professors have the same teaching methods and style from week one all the way to week 14- some of the material we're learning late in the semester may not even build on anything previously covered. Some professors are trying to tweak this system- I had one professor assign us to summary judgment motions and complaints to draft (which I thought was very helpful), and I've heard other professors do written assignments/midterms, but I haven't seen a concerted effort to try and revamp teaching styles.

-- JonathanWaisnor - 04 Feb 2010

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Revision 10r10 - 18 Feb 2010 - 02:59:26 - StephenSevero
Revision 9r9 - 17 Feb 2010 - 20:54:27 - AerinMiller
Revision 8r8 - 17 Feb 2010 - 19:38:19 - SuzanneSciarra
Revision 7r7 - 15 Feb 2010 - 04:17:38 - RobLaser
Revision 6r6 - 11 Feb 2010 - 17:50:17 - RorySkaggs
Revision 5r5 - 10 Feb 2010 - 20:33:16 - JessicaCohen
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