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PerspectivesinLaw 19 - 03 Feb 2008 - Main.AndrewGradman
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| | I’ve been having a hard time in this class, and would like others’ input. While this class is by far my favorite, it is also the most frustrating. I’m not sure how to look at what I consider to be stereotyping, judgmental views, and bifurcated ways of thinking: Good law versus bad law, pink skin versus non-pink skin, complacency and greed versus (what I assume is meant) altruism and righteousness. I’m probably not the most articulate person to be making the points I’m about to make, but please understand I mean no offense – I’m only trying to understand and be understood, and, through this classroom experience, to learn some non-academic things along the way.
Do I like money? You’re damned right I do. Why? Because, in this society, it opens up options and is the main instrument that one is forced to use in order to produce resources that one needs and prefers (in other words, those things that make life a heck of a lot easier). I don’t care about status, social position, or wealth per se (despite what may be unintentionally implied by the sentence about being a secretary as opposed to a lawyer in the profile at http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inquiries/news_events/2007/December07/2010profiles.) The reason I applied to Columbia instead of law schools in my state is because I assumed (and I think rightly so) that on balance, there is too good a chance I will be unemployed after law school if I’m not able to tell prospective employers that I went to what this society considers a “top” law school. If I had chosen to go to a law school in my state (in my case, Indiana University), I would be paying $15,784 in tuition this year; at Columbia, I am paying $42,024. Yes, I’m paying up-front almost three times per year in tuition what I could be paying. But I, employers, and the law schools know that my chance of recouping that financial outlay is by far greater if I have the Latin equivalent of “Columbia” at the top of my diploma instead of “Indiana.” Frustrating, but real. | | |
-- BarbPitman - 03 Feb 2008 | |
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Barb,
Eben responded to several threads, including this one, by discussing goals for the class. My word "Please" wrongly attributed that to be your intention. I hope you will go back to the Directory and improve my summary.
Conversations go places the first speaker never intended. Fingers were pointed at me for starting conversations in a tone that took us away from Eben's goals. I intended the Directory to bring us back to those goals. If I started the conversation by pointing a finger at you, I apologize -- I didn't intend that either!
The larger question is whether "first speakers" are responsible for unintended new directions. "Actively listen" has been Eben's theme, and not doing so causes communication to fail. But one could also argue that the original message is "whatever got heard."
-- AndrewGradman - 03 Feb 2008 | | | |
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PerspectivesinLaw 18 - 03 Feb 2008 - Main.BarbPitman
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| | I’ve been having a hard time in this class, and would like others’ input. While this class is by far my favorite, it is also the most frustrating. I’m not sure how to look at what I consider to be stereotyping, judgmental views, and bifurcated ways of thinking: Good law versus bad law, pink skin versus non-pink skin, complacency and greed versus (what I assume is meant) altruism and righteousness. I’m probably not the most articulate person to be making the points I’m about to make, but please understand I mean no offense – I’m only trying to understand and be understood, and, through this classroom experience, to learn some non-academic things along the way.
Do I like money? You’re damned right I do. Why? Because, in this society, it opens up options and is the main instrument that one is forced to use in order to produce resources that one needs and prefers (in other words, those things that make life a heck of a lot easier). I don’t care about status, social position, or wealth per se (despite what may be unintentionally implied by the sentence about being a secretary as opposed to a lawyer in the profile at http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inquiries/news_events/2007/December07/2010profiles.) The reason I applied to Columbia instead of law schools in my state is because I assumed (and I think rightly so) that on balance, there is too good a chance I will be unemployed after law school if I’m not able to tell prospective employers that I went to what this society considers a “top” law school. If I had chosen to go to a law school in my state (in my case, Indiana University), I would be paying $15,784 in tuition this year; at Columbia, I am paying $42,024. Yes, I’m paying up-front almost three times per year in tuition what I could be paying. But I, employers, and the law schools know that my chance of recouping that financial outlay is by far greater if I have the Latin equivalent of “Columbia” at the top of my diploma instead of “Indiana.” Frustrating, but real. | | |
-- BarbPitman - 25 Jan 2008 | |
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I see that this thread is now summarized in the section that suggests we condense the index into header topics by the statements "(Eben's goals for this class) Please clarify the goals!" I'm not quite sure how to take this, given that this thread was started by me. If the summary suggests that the starting of this thread took us away from Eben's intended goals, then let me explain that I started this thread in RESPONSE to Eben's first-day comments about (if I may generalize) Biglaw being a place someone should not work. Then someone from class posted something using the words "greed" and "complacency" and referring to Eben's comments in class about work people don't really want to do (my read: Biglaw). So this thread was started in response to these two sets of comments -- one set coming from Eben in class, the other set coming from what Eben said in class. Then, yes, Eben spent a large part of a later class period discussing goals for the class. I'm alarmed if fingers are being pointed at me regarding confusion about classroom focus. My opinion: Eben -- if you wanted to limit classroom focus to the material in the book and/or didn't want commentary having to do with employment choices and the associated stigmas and assumptions, then you shouldn't have started the first day with a long diatribe that had nothing to do with the book and that in fact did address your opinion of Biglaw. Sorry, guys, but I believe Eben is the source of the very confusion Eben and others have addressed. And, Eben, if you want to respond to what I've just said, please do so in the same context in which I've placed it -- not by bringing it up in the classroom. You should know that we post here to classroom commentary for two reasons: (1) you provided this forum and encouraged us to use it to comment on in-class discussion, and (2) we can expand on classroom discussion without having to worry about running out of class time. However, some of us feel as if we are being "shaken down" when, in class, you spring on us pointed responses to what we've written on this site. Address me here so that we DON'T take up more class time with these issues -- to me, this is appropriate, and fair.
-- BarbPitman - 03 Feb 2008 | | | |
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PerspectivesinLaw 17 - 31 Jan 2008 - Main.AdamGold
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| | I’ve been having a hard time in this class, and would like others’ input. While this class is by far my favorite, it is also the most frustrating. I’m not sure how to look at what I consider to be stereotyping, judgmental views, and bifurcated ways of thinking: Good law versus bad law, pink skin versus non-pink skin, complacency and greed versus (what I assume is meant) altruism and righteousness. I’m probably not the most articulate person to be making the points I’m about to make, but please understand I mean no offense – I’m only trying to understand and be understood, and, through this classroom experience, to learn some non-academic things along the way.
Do I like money? You’re damned right I do. Why? Because, in this society, it opens up options and is the main instrument that one is forced to use in order to produce resources that one needs and prefers (in other words, those things that make life a heck of a lot easier). I don’t care about status, social position, or wealth per se (despite what may be unintentionally implied by the sentence about being a secretary as opposed to a lawyer in the profile at http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inquiries/news_events/2007/December07/2010profiles.) The reason I applied to Columbia instead of law schools in my state is because I assumed (and I think rightly so) that on balance, there is too good a chance I will be unemployed after law school if I’m not able to tell prospective employers that I went to what this society considers a “top” law school. If I had chosen to go to a law school in my state (in my case, Indiana University), I would be paying $15,784 in tuition this year; at Columbia, I am paying $42,024. Yes, I’m paying up-front almost three times per year in tuition what I could be paying. But I, employers, and the law schools know that my chance of recouping that financial outlay is by far greater if I have the Latin equivalent of “Columbia” at the top of my diploma instead of “Indiana.” Frustrating, but real. |
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PerspectivesinLaw 16 - 25 Jan 2008 - Main.BarbPitman
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| | I’ve been having a hard time in this class, and would like others’ input. While this class is by far my favorite, it is also the most frustrating. I’m not sure how to look at what I consider to be stereotyping, judgmental views, and bifurcated ways of thinking: Good law versus bad law, pink skin versus non-pink skin, complacency and greed versus (what I assume is meant) altruism and righteousness. I’m probably not the most articulate person to be making the points I’m about to make, but please understand I mean no offense – I’m only trying to understand and be understood, and, through this classroom experience, to learn some non-academic things along the way.
Do I like money? You’re damned right I do. Why? Because, in this society, it opens up options and is the main instrument that one is forced to use in order to produce resources that one needs and prefers (in other words, those things that make life a heck of a lot easier). I don’t care about status, social position, or wealth per se (despite what may be unintentionally implied by the sentence about being a secretary as opposed to a lawyer in the profile at http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inquiries/news_events/2007/December07/2010profiles.) The reason I applied to Columbia instead of law schools in my state is because I assumed (and I think rightly so) that on balance, there is too good a chance I will be unemployed after law school if I’m not able to tell prospective employers that I went to what this society considers a “top” law school. If I had chosen to go to a law school in my state (in my case, Indiana University), I would be paying $15,784 in tuition this year; at Columbia, I am paying $42,024. Yes, I’m paying up-front almost three times per year in tuition what I could be paying. But I, employers, and the law schools know that my chance of recouping that financial outlay is by far greater if I have the Latin equivalent of “Columbia” at the top of my diploma instead of “Indiana.” Frustrating, but real. | | | I have spent a lot of time in the Netherlands where I am a citizen. When I was living there last year, I had just finished college and was preparing to start pursuing a career. What I found striking was how my Dutch friends and cousins who were in the same 'life' position were making their decisions and considering their options in a completely different atmosphere. To mention a few of the driving factors -financial concerns tend to be far less prevalent since the government provides a comparatively enormous amount of security. Student debt is also comparatively non-existent - average university tuition is under 2000 euro per year (in fact, the government gives college students monthly stipends to help with living costs and free public transportation). The point is, that the 'socially constructed' dichotomy isn't quite so prevalent there - from what I have observed anyway. I think that in many ways living in the United States is far scarier than living in the Netherlands where the government steps in to provide such enormous security. I do think that these factors play a role in the creation of this 'social construction'. I would be interested in hearing more of what others have to say in terms of addressing why this perception exists in the first place as a way of getting at the more pressing questions of how to overcome it.
-- CarinaWallance - 25 Jan 2008 | |
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Michael and Carina,
Thanks for your responses -- I appreciate your perspectives and the opportunity to learn from you. As concerns bifurcated/dichotomous thinking, I think that ideas can be presented to you in that form, but it is you who ultimately decides how to interpret them. For example, at one point yesterday, Eben said as an aside that he is known for criticizing instead of building up. But criticizing and building up don’t have to be mutually exclusive: if the person being criticized takes it as an opportunity to learn, then “building up” should occur.
-- BarbPitman - 25 Jan 2008 | | | |
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PerspectivesinLaw 15 - 25 Jan 2008 - Main.CarinaWallance
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| | I’ve been having a hard time in this class, and would like others’ input. While this class is by far my favorite, it is also the most frustrating. I’m not sure how to look at what I consider to be stereotyping, judgmental views, and bifurcated ways of thinking: Good law versus bad law, pink skin versus non-pink skin, complacency and greed versus (what I assume is meant) altruism and righteousness. I’m probably not the most articulate person to be making the points I’m about to make, but please understand I mean no offense – I’m only trying to understand and be understood, and, through this classroom experience, to learn some non-academic things along the way.
Do I like money? You’re damned right I do. Why? Because, in this society, it opens up options and is the main instrument that one is forced to use in order to produce resources that one needs and prefers (in other words, those things that make life a heck of a lot easier). I don’t care about status, social position, or wealth per se (despite what may be unintentionally implied by the sentence about being a secretary as opposed to a lawyer in the profile at http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inquiries/news_events/2007/December07/2010profiles.) The reason I applied to Columbia instead of law schools in my state is because I assumed (and I think rightly so) that on balance, there is too good a chance I will be unemployed after law school if I’m not able to tell prospective employers that I went to what this society considers a “top” law school. If I had chosen to go to a law school in my state (in my case, Indiana University), I would be paying $15,784 in tuition this year; at Columbia, I am paying $42,024. Yes, I’m paying up-front almost three times per year in tuition what I could be paying. But I, employers, and the law schools know that my chance of recouping that financial outlay is by far greater if I have the Latin equivalent of “Columbia” at the top of my diploma instead of “Indiana.” Frustrating, but real. | | |
-- MichaelBrown - 25 Jan 2008 | |
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Going back to Eben's suggestion that we should not divide the question of materially defining what we want/need and defining socially meaningful work in half - that this dichotomy is a social construction rather than a practicality... If this is a social construction, how has it formed and why is it so prevalent?
I am under the impression that this divide is more present as a social construction in my generation than it was for my parents. On numerous occasions my parents have commented that the issues and concerns that my peers in college were considering and weighing in terms of making decisions about what jobs and careers to pursue were very different from the considerations they made when they were this age – generally the trend being that in ‘their day’ the concern was more about adventure and making social change and today it’s more about what looks good on a resume and establishing lucrative careers. Is this 'dichotomy' greater today, if so why?
I have spent a lot of time in the Netherlands where I am a citizen. When I was living there last year, I had just finished college and was preparing to start pursuing a career. What I found striking was how my Dutch friends and cousins who were in the same 'life' position were making their decisions and considering their options in a completely different atmosphere. To mention a few of the driving factors -financial concerns tend to be far less prevalent since the government provides a comparatively enormous amount of security. Student debt is also comparatively non-existent - average university tuition is under 2000 euro per year (in fact, the government gives college students monthly stipends to help with living costs and free public transportation). The point is, that the 'socially constructed' dichotomy isn't quite so prevalent there - from what I have observed anyway. I think that in many ways living in the United States is far scarier than living in the Netherlands where the government steps in to provide such enormous security. I do think that these factors play a role in the creation of this 'social construction'. I would be interested in hearing more of what others have to say in terms of addressing why this perception exists in the first place as a way of getting at the more pressing questions of how to overcome it.
-- CarinaWallance - 25 Jan 2008 | | | |
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