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RaceVClass 14 - 09 Apr 2012 - Main.MichelleLuo
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | I would want to hear specifics on both race-based AND class-based discriminatory policies. And if they're discriminatory policies motivated primarily by racism, I'm obviously on-board to see their demise. But I just care a lot also about the subject of class. And I'd like to see it exposed for what it is more often.
-- KippMueller - 08 Apr 2012 | |
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> | Thank you for starting this topic, Kipp.
While Rumbi's point about the particular experience of people who are both poor and people of color is totally valid, I don't think it's incompatible with Kipp's sentiments. The consistent conflation of race and class ignores the plight of a significant portion of the population that is poor and white. According to a 2010 count, 14% of poor people are white and 36% are black. While there is certainly a much larger percentage of poor and black people, there are still about 27 million poor white people. (http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=1&cat=1&ind=14) I don't think you can fairly compare the experiences of poor white people and poor black people, but I don't see why we should delegitimize the struggles of poor white people solely because they have white privilege on their side. (Scroll down to illustrative examples of white privilege - http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html)
"2) sometimes it's really alienating in an unfair way." -Kipp
I think that the responses (and accusations) that your original post provoked support this view. Like you, I'm trying to figure out how to be noncomplicit about injustice, but it's discouraging when you have to defend your good intentions.
-- MichelleLuo - 08 Apr 2012 |
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RaceVClass 13 - 08 Apr 2012 - Main.KippMueller
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | I guess that makes sense. But I'm saying these particular spaces were heavily influenced by classism in my opinion, and yet the concept of classism was never even broached as a reason. And it felt wrong to discuss them only as an issue of race. | |
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< | I would discuss them absent race or any other consideration if I could. The reason I brought it up in the context of race is that the two are very often complementary, as you said. It's very difficult to find a space that exists to discuss class in which race doesn't come into play, which is why I think classism gets lost in the conversation. So I brought up these examples as times in which I felt classism played a larger role than what was recognized. | >
> | I would discuss classism absent race or any other consideration if I could. The reason I brought it up in the context of race is that the two are very often complementary, as you said. It's very difficult to find a space that exists to discuss class in which race doesn't come into play, which is why I think classism gets lost in the conversation. So I brought up these examples as times in which I felt classism played a larger role than what was recognized. | | | I honestly don't feel like I was saying it to accommodate myself, but rather because I didn't think it was a fair characterization of the root issue being discussed. I get that because I'm white, it's going to be pretty hard to convince anyone of that, but I'll just say that's at least what I'm consciously aware of as my motivation.
Obviously, I know it's a super touchy subject and don't mean to off-put. Sorry for that. I don't like to off-put at all. But I also wrote that I felt alienated, knowing that I'm not supposed to say that as a white guy and not really caring because regardless of whether I'm supposed to say it or not, it's just how I felt. | |
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< | Rumbi, as far as the interrelation point of race and class... couldn't agree more on that. I just would like to see both discussed. I would want to hear specifics on both race-based AND class-based discriminatory policies. And if they're discriminatory policies motivated primarily by racism, I'm obviously on-board to see their demise. But I just care a lot also about the subject of class. And I'd like to see it exposed for what it is more often. | >
> | Rumbi, as far as the interrelation point of race and class... couldn't agree more on that. I just would like to see both discussed. When you say it's the interrelation of the two that is the cause, I'm totally on board with that. I want to emphasize I'm absolutely not saying race isn't part of the equation. I'm just saying there's another variable that's too often forgotten.
I would want to hear specifics on both race-based AND class-based discriminatory policies. And if they're discriminatory policies motivated primarily by racism, I'm obviously on-board to see their demise. But I just care a lot also about the subject of class. And I'd like to see it exposed for what it is more often. | | | -- KippMueller - 08 Apr 2012 |
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RaceVClass 12 - 08 Apr 2012 - Main.RumbidzaiMaweni
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | Kipp,
I, like, Prashant, was also rubbed the wrong way by your initial post. I can’t speak to what the speaker you referred to was saying because I wasn’t there. You might well be right that his speech was oversimplifying. I also agree that race and class are too often conflated in this country. But for people who are poor AND people of color, these issues might as well be two sides of the same coin because the ways in which these identities intersect is going to position them, socio-economically, in a way that is separate and unique from not being a beneficiary of one or the other (race or class privilege). I also think it’s reductive to expect people who experience an intersection of multiple forms of discrimination to only refer to one or the other when discussing discriminatory policies, because it is precisely how these forms interrelate that’s going to inform the overall impact of certain policies on them. Thus, to say you are uncomfortable or feel “alienated” by the way some people have chosen to frame that reality does sound a little off-putting, and very much like the expectation of someone who unconsciously expects to be accommodated by, if not the center, of all dialogue, especially as there are plenty of spaces that exist to discuss class or gender, or any other system of oppression, absent the consideration of race. | |
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< | -- RumbidzaiMaweni - 08 Apr 2012 | | | | |
>
> | -- RumbidzaiMaweni - 08 Apr 2012 | | | I guess that makes sense. But I'm saying these particular spaces were heavily influenced by classism in my opinion, and yet the concept of classism was never even broached as a reason. And it felt wrong to discuss them only as an issue of race. |
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RaceVClass 11 - 08 Apr 2012 - Main.KippMueller
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | I guess that makes sense. But I'm saying these particular spaces were heavily influenced by classism in my opinion, and yet the concept of classism was never even broached as a reason. And it felt wrong to discuss them only as an issue of race. | |
<
< | I would discuss them absent race or any other consideration if I could. It's very difficult to find a space that exists to discuss class in which race doesn't come into play, which is why I think classism gets lost in the conversation. So I brought up these examples as times in which I felt classism played a larger role than what was recognized. | >
> | I would discuss them absent race or any other consideration if I could. The reason I brought it up in the context of race is that the two are very often complementary, as you said. It's very difficult to find a space that exists to discuss class in which race doesn't come into play, which is why I think classism gets lost in the conversation. So I brought up these examples as times in which I felt classism played a larger role than what was recognized. | | | I honestly don't feel like I was saying it to accommodate myself, but rather because I didn't think it was a fair characterization of the root issue being discussed. I get that because I'm white, it's going to be pretty hard to convince anyone of that, but I'll just say that's at least what I'm consciously aware of as my motivation. |
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RaceVClass 10 - 08 Apr 2012 - Main.RumbidzaiMaweni
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | Kipp, | |
<
< | I, like, Prashant, was also rubbed the wrong way by your initial post. I can’t speak to what the speaker you referred to was saying because I wasn’t there. You might well be right that his speech was oversimplifying. I also agree that race and class are too often conflated in this country. But for people who are poor AND people of color, these issues might as well be two sides of the same coin because the ways in which these identities intersect is going to position them, socio-economically, in a way that is separate and unique from not being a beneficiary of one or the other (race or class privilege). I also think it’s reductive to expect people who experience an intersection of multiple forms of discrimination to only refer to one or the other when discussing discriminatory policies, because it is precisely how these forms interrelate that’s going to inform the overall impact of certain policies on them. Thus, to say you are uncomfortable or feel “alienated” by the way some people have chosen to frame that reality does sound a little off-putting, and very much like the expectation of someone who unconsciously expects to be accommodated by, if not the center, of all dialogue, especially as there are plenty of spaces that exist to discuss class or gender, or any other system of oppression, absent the consideration of race.
I, like, Prashant, was also rubbed the wrong way by your initial post. I can’t speak to what the speaker you referred to was saying because I wasn’t there. You might well be right that his speech was oversimplifying. I also agree that race and class are too often conflated in this country. But for people who are poor AND people of color, these issues might as well be two sides of the same coin because the ways in which these identities intersect is going to position them, socio-economically, in a way that is separate and unique from not being a beneficiary of one or the other (race or class privilege). I also think it’s reductive to expect people who experience an intersection of multiple forms of discrimination to only refer to one or the other at any given time because it is precisely how these forms interrelate that’s going to inform the overall impact of discriminatory policies on them. Thus, to say you are uncomfortable or feel “alienated” by the way some people have chosen to frame that reality does sound a little off-putting, and very much like the expectation of someone who unconsciously expects to be accommodated by, if not the center, of dialogue, especially as there are plenty of spaces that exist to discuss class or gender, or any other system of oppression, absent the consideration of race.
-- RumbidzaiMaweni - 08 Apr 2012
-- RumbidzaiMaweni? - 08 Apr 2012
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> | I, like, Prashant, was also rubbed the wrong way by your initial post. I can’t speak to what the speaker you referred to was saying because I wasn’t there. You might well be right that his speech was oversimplifying. I also agree that race and class are too often conflated in this country. But for people who are poor AND people of color, these issues might as well be two sides of the same coin because the ways in which these identities intersect is going to position them, socio-economically, in a way that is separate and unique from not being a beneficiary of one or the other (race or class privilege). I also think it’s reductive to expect people who experience an intersection of multiple forms of discrimination to only refer to one or the other when discussing discriminatory policies, because it is precisely how these forms interrelate that’s going to inform the overall impact of certain policies on them. Thus, to say you are uncomfortable or feel “alienated” by the way some people have chosen to frame that reality does sound a little off-putting, and very much like the expectation of someone who unconsciously expects to be accommodated by, if not the center, of all dialogue, especially as there are plenty of spaces that exist to discuss class or gender, or any other system of oppression, absent the consideration of race.
-- RumbidzaiMaweni - 08 Apr 2012 | | |
I guess that makes sense. But I'm saying these particular spaces were heavily influenced by classism in my opinion, and yet the concept of classism was never even broached as a reason. And it felt wrong to discuss them only as an issue of race. |
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