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RaceVClass 19 - 09 Apr 2012 - Main.KippMueller
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | Prashant
-- PrashantRai - 09 Apr 2012 | |
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> | Sorry Prashant, I know I said I'd just leave it at that but just wanted to say real quickly that I think we're for the most part in agreement. But for your first point above, the guy and I in the story weren't discussing white privilege. We were talking about the source of an unfair policy, one that I believed was very much based on classism. He wasn't saying that white privilege exists, to which I was responding that that's unfair to say. He was saying that white people were the source and sole contributor to a policy issue, to which I was saying that that was an unfair characterization of the actual root of that particular discriminatory policy.
Okay, I'm done and done and done. Maybe we'll talk more about this stuff over a beer sometime.
Cheers,
Kipper
-- KippMueller - 09 Apr 2012 |
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RaceVClass 18 - 09 Apr 2012 - Main.RumbidzaiMaweni
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | Michelle, | |
<
< | I’m not exactly sure how we jumped to “de-legitimizing the poor, white experience.” There’s certainly nothing controversial about anything you’ve said. I think where Kipp and I differ is in perception, and to what extent we feel like there exist spaces to talk about class without everything being subsumed into race. Treating race and class as though they are interchangeable is definitely problematic. I just don’t think that the “alienation” of a white person who felt that a (I assume) non-white speaker spent too much time talking about race, and not class was a good starting point for that discussion. It gives the impression of privileging white comfort over the fact that the speaker may well have felt that race was the more salient concern at play. | >
> | I’m not exactly sure how we jumped to “de-legitimizing the poor, white experience.” There’s certainly nothing controversial about anything you’ve said. I think where Kipp and I differ is in perception, and to what extent we feel like there exist spaces to talk about class without everything being subsumed into race. Treating race and class as though they are interchangeable is definitely problematic. I just don’t think that the “alienation” of a white person who felt that a (I assume) non-white speaker spent too much time talking about race, and not class, was a good starting point for that discussion. It gave the impression of privileging white comfort over the fact that the speaker may well have felt that race was the more salient issue at play. | | | | |
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< | Finally, I’m also not quite sure I understand why you find it discouraging when someone’s good intentions are questioned- there’s a great deal of harm in this world done by so-called well-meaning people, and I don't think anyone should have the privilege of an automatic pass when they do or say potentially questionable things simply because they meant well. I think pushing each other to be transparent and honest about why we’ve chosen our positions on these topics goes a long way towards illuminating the discussion for everyone. | >
> | Finally, I’m also not quite sure I understand why you find it discouraging when someone’s good intentions are questioned- there’s a great deal of harm done in this world by so-called well-meaning people, and I don't think anyone should have the privilege of an automatic pass when they do or say potentially questionable things simply because they meant well. I think pushing each other to be transparent and honest about why we’ve chosen our positions on these topics goes a long way towards illuminating the discussion for everyone. | | | -- RumbidzaiMaweni - 08 Apr 2012 |
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RaceVClass 17 - 09 Apr 2012 - Main.PrashantRai
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | Finally, I’m also not quite sure I understand why you find it discouraging when someone’s good intentions are questioned- there’s a great deal of harm in this world done by so-called well-meaning people, and I don't think anyone should have the privilege of an automatic pass when they do or say potentially questionable things simply because they meant well. I think pushing each other to be transparent and honest about why we’ve chosen our positions on these topics goes a long way towards illuminating the discussion for everyone.
-- RumbidzaiMaweni - 08 Apr 2012 | |
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> | Hey Kipp,
I originally posted a long response to your response to my post, but then I realized that its length was borderline obscene and evoked the feeling of "tl; dr" a little too much. I think I'll just leave it at: I agree with everything Rumbi has said in this thread.
(1) I don't think that you feeling alienated by discussions of white privilege is unfair.
(2) I don't think that people who talk about racism must talk about classism in order to avoid "taking our eye off the ball."
(3) I don't think that being well-meaning is enough to get anyone off the hook.
Cheers,
Prashant
-- PrashantRai - 09 Apr 2012 |
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RaceVClass 16 - 09 Apr 2012 - Main.RumbidzaiMaweni
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | But classism isn't really conceptually important, it seems. We don't really take apart policies for their classism very often. When we discussed literacy tests in Con Law, we talked about whether they had disparate impact based on race and could therefore be found unconstitutional. I talked with Professor Greene after class, asking whether one could argue that they were unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause because they unfairly discriminated against people based on class (education level). He said that just wasn't a concept really cared about by our legal system. That's really what I'm reacting to. Anyways, talking everyone's ears off. I'll let it be. Thanks for comments, all!
-- KippMueller - 08 Apr 2012 | |
>
> | Kipp,
I enjoyed your last two posts, and agree with your overall point. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position.
Michelle,
I’m not exactly sure how we jumped to “de-legitimizing the poor, white experience.” There’s certainly nothing controversial about anything you’ve said. I think where Kipp and I differ is in perception, and to what extent we feel like there exist spaces to talk about class without everything being subsumed into race. Treating race and class as though they are interchangeable is definitely problematic. I just don’t think that the “alienation” of a white person who felt that a (I assume) non-white speaker spent too much time talking about race, and not class was a good starting point for that discussion. It gives the impression of privileging white comfort over the fact that the speaker may well have felt that race was the more salient concern at play.
Finally, I’m also not quite sure I understand why you find it discouraging when someone’s good intentions are questioned- there’s a great deal of harm in this world done by so-called well-meaning people, and I don't think anyone should have the privilege of an automatic pass when they do or say potentially questionable things simply because they meant well. I think pushing each other to be transparent and honest about why we’ve chosen our positions on these topics goes a long way towards illuminating the discussion for everyone.
-- RumbidzaiMaweni - 08 Apr 2012 |
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RaceVClass 15 - 09 Apr 2012 - Main.KippMueller
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| | I realize this is going to be a pretty damn controversial post, but I feel compelled to speak on the subject. I sometimes become concerned that classism becomes too easily conflated with racism in our world.
There's many draws to calling a certain policy racist: | | | I think that the responses (and accusations) that your original post provoked support this view. Like you, I'm trying to figure out how to be noncomplicit about injustice, but it's discouraging when you have to defend your good intentions.
-- MichelleLuo - 08 Apr 2012 | |
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> | Totally agreed, thanks Michelle. Just to be clear, I really had no intentions with this post to even allude to the poor white population. I just wanted to try to isolate issues that affect the poor population, absent race, but also point out that race is so inextricably linked with class that it's hard to distinguish the two. In San Francisco, I remember multiple bus raids where police would stop the bus and check everyone's tickets. I doubt they raided offices without warrants in the financial district often for illegal behavior. And while these raids certainly disproportionately affected minorities, they were absolutely blatant in their classism. And I wish we'd point to them and say that yes, it very well could have been influenced by racism, but the classism is written on the wall!
But classism isn't really conceptually important, it seems. We don't really take apart policies for their classism very often. When we discussed literacy tests in Con Law, we talked about whether they had disparate impact based on race and could therefore be found unconstitutional. I talked with Professor Greene after class, asking whether one could argue that they were unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause because they unfairly discriminated against people based on class (education level). He said that just wasn't a concept really cared about by our legal system. That's really what I'm reacting to. Anyways, talking everyone's ears off. I'll let it be. Thanks for comments, all!
-- KippMueller - 08 Apr 2012 |
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