Law in the Internet Society

View   r13  >  r12  >  r11  >  r10  >  r9  >  r8  ...
JonathanBoyerFirstPaper 13 - 25 Nov 2009 - Main.JustinColannino
Line: 1 to 1
 
META TOPICPARENT name="FirstPaper"
**READY FOR REVIEW**
Line: 92 to 93
 I look forward to reading the final version; you've written a really interesting paper!

-- HeatherStevenson - 25 Nov 2009

Added:
>
>
Jonathan,

In your last paragraph you cite "serious feasibility concerns" if there were more free textbooks and lesson plans, and then conclude that the NCLB act makes it difficult for administrators to choose from competing free choices. I think that this conclusion is founded on an incorrect assumption: that "free" implies that is made in spare time by people who are uncoordinated.

I think that although allowing teachers to contribute to, remix, and share textbooks is important, a free textbook does not need to be written by people who do not receive compensation, and who are uncoordinated. Somebody currently gets paid to write text-books. I don't think its too much of a stretch from the lessons free software to imagine an educational non-profit (or governmental agency) paying some experts to write a series of textbooks under a free license geared towards the NCLB tests. Once the book exists, updating it would not be too hard, it could be modified to fit local needs and it could be printed on demand at low cost. If that non-profit or agency developed a trademark that signaled that they approved of the particular distribution, but required that it be removed from distributions that they did not approve of, then I think that your concerns of school boards and administrators separating the wheat from the chaff disappear. Indeed, this is how many free software projects, parts of which are as arduous and tedious as textbook writing (in my experience, implementing a system to store files in a computer is quite boring), currently operate.

I think that acknowledging and addressing that coordination is feasible in free educational tools, and then looking at what this means in the current education system would do much to bolster this paper.

-- JustinColannino - 25 Nov 2009

 
 
<--/commentPlugin-->

# * Set ALLOWTOPICVIEW = TWikiAdminGroup, JonathanBoyer \ No newline at end of file


JonathanBoyerFirstPaper 12 - 25 Nov 2009 - Main.HeatherStevenson
Line: 1 to 1
 
META TOPICPARENT name="FirstPaper"
**READY FOR REVIEW**
Line: 84 to 84
 You are tackling a difficult argument, and doing it in an innovative way. I think if you hone and sharpen it more, it will be stronger. It's a good read already, though. Nice work.

-- BrianS - 24 Nov 2009

Added:
>
>

Jonathan, Thanks for taking time to respond to all of my comments in such depth (and thanks to Brian for fixing the formatting after I commented - I likely did something before that messed it up). I think you're right that we generally agree on most, if not all, of the big issues that you address in your paper. I'll share just one more thought on your first arguments about textbooks and NCLB. Do you think it is possible that if there were suddenly good textbooks (whatever that means) freely available to all teachers, then there would be a possibility of less teaching to the test? In other words, if teachers could provide better educations to students through the use of better textbooks, might more public schools be able to get to the point at which the best public schools have already arrived - where nearly every child easily meets NCLB standards, and the testing is seen merely as a nuisance taking away from educational time? I don't know what I think on that issue, and I don't think heavy teacher reliance on textbooks is good. Still, I the argument can be made that rather than NCLB requirements limiting the usefulness of free textbooks, maybe free textbooks could help schools move beyond NCLB as the point of teaching. Anyway, that's just a thought. There are likely too many "what ifs" in the alternate argument I've suggested.

I look forward to reading the final version; you've written a really interesting paper!

-- HeatherStevenson - 25 Nov 2009

 
 
<--/commentPlugin-->

# * Set ALLOWTOPICVIEW = TWikiAdminGroup, JonathanBoyer \ No newline at end of file


JonathanBoyerFirstPaper 11 - 24 Nov 2009 - Main.JonathanBoyer
Line: 1 to 1
 
META TOPICPARENT name="FirstPaper"
**READY FOR REVIEW**
Line: 61 to 61
 -- EdwardBontkowski - 24 Nov 2009
Changed:
<
<
Great stuff - thanks! I will digest this more over the coming week, but here are a few quick responses to the enumerated comments below:
>
>
Great stuff - thanks! I will digest this more over the coming week, but here are a few quick responses to the enumerated comments above:
 1) Personally, I don't think teacher dependence on textbooks and rigid lesson plans is good, but, whatever my ideas are for an ideal education system, that is beyond what I wanted to tackle here. Specifically, I was just hoping to point out systemic realities that aren't likely to change anytime soon and then envision what challenges might arise if all of these educational materials were suddenly free. There is a lot to criticize about NCLB, certainly, but to my knowledge every state attempts to play by its rules for funding purposes. When standardized tests, on which funding depends, are linked to very specific learning objectives, educators are extremely constrained to teach things by the book. That's the reality of it. Having specific, universal learning objectives makes it easier to collect data on a large-scale and then evaluate national educational progress. That's what goes on in this country: the fed has created an omni-present aura of accountability, and this kind of surveillance is supposed to be the spur educators need. If teachers were suddenly allowed to take advantage of a free textbook/curriculum market, it would become much more difficult to match so many new varieties of methodologies with measurable learning objectives.

JonathanBoyerFirstPaper 10 - 24 Nov 2009 - Main.BrianS
Line: 1 to 1
 
META TOPICPARENT name="FirstPaper"
**READY FOR REVIEW**
Line: 33 to 33
 At its core, the achievement gap in the United States is marked by social, political, and economic realities that have created inequitable disparities between how various sub-groups of children value and consume particular types of information. Although curing deficient access to information is a necessary goal that might also fully address some individual problems, it is overly optimistic to assume that this alone will significantly affect the achievement gap. Ultimately, the theoretical right to read and learn will not be fully vindicated until behavior patterns strongly associated with socioeconomic status -- reinforced through multiple generations -- are transformed so that a fully-stocked public library next door does not go unmentioned in a child's household.
Added:
>
>

 
Added:
>
>
Jonathan, I find your piece very interesting, and as I’d guess you intended, quite provocative. I haven't spent much time imagining potential downsides of making educational material free to all, and I really enjoyed reading your ideas. I have a few comments and disagreements that you may find worthwhile to address.

1.Within your first argument about textbooks, you seem to assume that American teachers’ dependence on textbooks is good, or even acceptable.Whether that is the case is, at the very least, debatable. I mention this point only so that you can incorporate it if you so choose; it does not really change your argument about free textbooks generally, but you may want to consider the other ways in which free books, magazines and newspapers (in addition to textbooks) could work within the U.S. education system. The debate over whether teaching from a textbook is a good idea exists even among those who must teach to standardized tests because there are multiple ways to teach similar content.

2. I think many people would argue that the creation of a textbook actually has the potential for a great deal of creativity and differentiation. The focus, organization, pictures choice, textboxes, incorporated activities, etc. all change the textbook a great deal and can be used in order to tailor a textbook to a particular group of students (for example, a textbook for elementary school children who grew up in the city may need to explain “fireplaces” or “driveways,” while a textbook for children in the country may need to explain the “subway”). Books intended to teach literacy are particularly appropriate for adapting to meet the needs of particular students, as children’s reading levels go up the more background knowledge they have about the topic on which they’re reading. See this article about content knowledge and reading. Or this more in depth article.

 
Added:
>
>
3. In your section on Free Educational Software, you seem to confuse the Achievement Gap with children with learning disabilities when you refer to children who are “1+ standard deviations below various cognitive means.” The idea of the achievement gap, at least as I understand it, is that children who started out with similar levels of ability to learn, are not achieving the same thing. Connected to this point, what is a “natural born learner”? A child who learns well from the style that is typically used in American classrooms? One beauty of software is that even putting many children on a computer while providing similar content increases the amount that they learn. See this article
 
Added:
>
>
4. I agree with you that free literature/books/software aren’t sufficient to close the achievement gap; however, access to free reading materials may be necessary. Putting a great piece of literature into a poor child’s hands will not teach him to read, but without any books at all, he is guaranteed not to learn. Access to reading material is more than a baby step. While parents can help increase literacy, so can great teachers. I would guess (though I can't prove) that a lot more good teachers would stay in teaching if they didn’t have to fight so hard for basic resources like books. Also, maybe your point about generations of reinforced behavior patterns suggests we should make reading material available to adults as well?

I hope these comments are helpful, and that you don't mind my disagreements too much!

 
Added:
>
>
-- HeatherStevenson - 24 Nov 2009
 Jonathan,
Line: 60 to 72
 4. I think we agree on just about everything here. The "baby-step" concept certainly isn't a science, so I won't debate too much about exactly how big it would be. Above all, again, I'm just hoping to point out shortcomings and potential challenges based on the current legal/political structure of education in the U.S. today.

-- JonathanBoyer - 24 Nov 2009

Deleted:
<
<
 
<--/commentPlugin-->

 

Jonathan,

Deleted:
<
<
I find your piece very interesting, and as I’d guess you intended, quite provocative. I haven't spent much time imagining potential downsides of making educational material free to all, and I really enjoyed reading your ideas. I have a few comments and disagreements that you may find worthwhile to address.
 
Changed:
<
<
1.Within your first argument about textbooks, you seem to assume that American teachers’ dependence on textbooks is good, or even acceptable.Whether that is the case is, at the very least, debatable. I mention this point only so that you can incorporate it if you so choose; it does not really change your argument about free textbooks generally, but you may want to consider the other ways in which free books, magazines and newspapers (in addition to textbooks) could work within the U.S. education system. The debate over whether teaching from a textbook is a good idea exists even among those who must teach to standardized tests because there are multiple ways to teach similar content.
>
>
I noticed when reading over your paper that somehow the formatting order got weird and Heather's comment was below the comment box, unsigned, and yet seemed to be first in time (since Edward references it). I fixed the formatting, I hope it was helpful and not intrusive.
 
Changed:
<
<
2. I think many people would argue that the creation of a textbook actually has the potential for a great deal of creativity and differentiation. The focus, organization, pictures choice, textboxes, incorporated activities, etc. all change the textbook a great deal and can be used in order to tailor a textbook to a particular group of students (for example, a textbook for elementary school children who grew up in the city may need to explain “fireplaces” or “driveways,” while a textbook for children in the country may need to explain the “subway”). Books intended to teach literacy are particularly appropriate for adapting to meet the needs of particular students, as children’s reading levels go up the more background knowledge they have about the topic on which they’re reading. [http://blog.coreknowledge.org/2008/08/27/on-reading-why-content-knowledge-matters/][See this article about content knowledge and reading.] [http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/issues/spring06/willingham.htm][Or this more in depth article].
>
>
Heather and Edward covered my comments well. I think the core idea is very good, but I tend to agree with Edward that it does speculate a bit and builds conclusions on those predictions that I wonder if are how things would come to pass. In particular, I tend to think a free software textbook movement would actually be pretty helpful for the disabled of any variety. Free computer software has certainly provided services for the disabled. I found those in just a dozen searches, I'm sure there are much better examples out there. I would also suggest honing the punch of the argument that standardization requirements will undercut a free textbook movement; if textbook content is as straight-forward as you argue, there's no reason I know of that free textbooks couldn't adequately mimic what the standards measure.
 
Changed:
<
<
3. In your section on Free Educational Software, you seem to confuse the Achievement Gap with children with learning disabilities when you refer to children who are “1+ standard deviations below various cognitive means.” The idea of the achievement gap, at least as I understand it, is that children who started out with similar levels of ability to learn, are not achieving the same thing. Connected to this point, what is a “natural born learner”? A child who learns well from the style that is typically used in American classrooms? One beauty of software is that even putting many children on a computer while providing similar content increases the amount that they learn. [http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCG/is_2_30/ai_105478983/][See this article]

4. I agree with you that free literature/books/software aren’t sufficient to close the achievement gap; however, access to free reading materials may be necessary. Putting a great piece of literature into a poor child’s hands will not teach him to read, but without any books at all, he is guaranteed not to learn. Access to reading material is more than a baby step. While parents can help increase literacy, so can great teachers. I would guess (though I can't prove) that a lot more good teachers would stay in teaching if they didn’t have to fight so hard for basic resources like books. Also, maybe your point about generations of reinforced behavior patterns suggests we should make reading material available to adults as well?

I hope these comments are helpful, and that you don't mind my disagreements too much!

>
>
You are tackling a difficult argument, and doing it in an innovative way. I think if you hone and sharpen it more, it will be stronger. It's a good read already, though. Nice work.
 
Added:
>
>
-- BrianS - 24 Nov 2009
 
<--/commentPlugin-->
 # * Set ALLOWTOPICVIEW = TWikiAdminGroup, JonathanBoyer \ No newline at end of file

JonathanBoyerFirstPaper 9 - 24 Nov 2009 - Main.JonathanBoyer
Line: 1 to 1
 
META TOPICPARENT name="FirstPaper"
**READY FOR REVIEW**
Line: 47 to 47
 You've got a really interesting piece. Looking forward to your final version.

-- EdwardBontkowski - 24 Nov 2009

Added:
>
>

Great stuff - thanks! I will digest this more over the coming week, but here are a few quick responses to the enumerated comments below:

1) Personally, I don't think teacher dependence on textbooks and rigid lesson plans is good, but, whatever my ideas are for an ideal education system, that is beyond what I wanted to tackle here. Specifically, I was just hoping to point out systemic realities that aren't likely to change anytime soon and then envision what challenges might arise if all of these educational materials were suddenly free. There is a lot to criticize about NCLB, certainly, but to my knowledge every state attempts to play by its rules for funding purposes. When standardized tests, on which funding depends, are linked to very specific learning objectives, educators are extremely constrained to teach things by the book. That's the reality of it. Having specific, universal learning objectives makes it easier to collect data on a large-scale and then evaluate national educational progress. That's what goes on in this country: the fed has created an omni-present aura of accountability, and this kind of surveillance is supposed to be the spur educators need. If teachers were suddenly allowed to take advantage of a free textbook/curriculum market, it would become much more difficult to match so many new varieties of methodologies with measurable learning objectives.

2. Great point, which I imagine is a better depiction of the K-3 context than, say, the 9-12 context. There is certainly creative potential there, but textbook writing is notoriously arduous, and I would be surprised if many people write high school textbooks to express their artistic side. I could be wrong.

3. Of course, there are a variety of reasons -- cognitive, social, emotional, behavioral, etc., etc. -- why some students might be better primed to learn than others, and your point is well taken. I would point out, though, that there are actually many "achievement gaps" monitored by the fed through NCLB, and many of these involve socioeconomic and racial groups who score lower on both cognitive tests and educational achievement tests, so it's not all about ability-achievement gaps. [The fact that better educational achievement in school is correlated with increased cognitive "ability" scores is a whole separate mega-issue of test validity, so I won't go there]. It is also true that NCLB looks at how special education students are fairing relative to other sub-groups, so better educating those with cognitive "disabilities" is certainly within the scope of closing achievement gaps. I agree with you about the beauty and potential of educational software, though.

4. I think we agree on just about everything here. The "baby-step" concept certainly isn't a science, so I won't debate too much about exactly how big it would be. Above all, again, I'm just hoping to point out shortcomings and potential challenges based on the current legal/political structure of education in the U.S. today.

-- JonathanBoyer - 24 Nov 2009

 
 
<--/commentPlugin-->

Revision 13r13 - 25 Nov 2009 - 18:15:20 - JustinColannino
Revision 12r12 - 25 Nov 2009 - 17:50:25 - HeatherStevenson
Revision 11r11 - 24 Nov 2009 - 18:09:40 - JonathanBoyer
Revision 10r10 - 24 Nov 2009 - 08:21:45 - BrianS
Revision 9r9 - 24 Nov 2009 - 06:09:07 - JonathanBoyer
Revision 8r8 - 24 Nov 2009 - 02:02:38 - EdwardBontkowski
This site is powered by the TWiki collaboration platform.
All material on this collaboration platform is the property of the contributing authors.
All material marked as authored by Eben Moglen is available under the license terms CC-BY-SA version 4.
Syndicate this site RSSATOM