I am having trouble understanding what is at the crux of the discussion, in class and in the comments on Mina's paper, about clothes and class. I see that we categorize each other according to socioeconomic status, based on our clothes. Yet, Eben observes that it is a rare law student who dresses properly for an interview (I, for instance, know next to nothing about suits, let alone the nuances of buttons and collars). So we can assume that many incorrectly attired law students are offered jobs anyway, and learn to dress properly for their respective jobs once they already have them. It follows then, that I wear will depend on what I do, and not vice versa. If I change jobs, my clothes will change. So if clothes are not a bar to raising one's socioeconomic status, but rather an indication of that status once attained, where and when does the relationship between clothes and class become important?

-- ClaireOSullivan - 11 May 2008

For my own curiosity (and probably use), what is the proper shirt collar and tie for an interview? This question is mostly directed Eben but an answer from someone from the ruling class would suffice.

-- JulianBaez - 11 May 2008

Julian, flipping through some pictures on various firm websites, I would suggest wearing the following to an interview (note that I grew up part of the hoi polloi and own exactly one wearable suit, so I don't know much about dressing to impress anyone):

Tie: 4 in hand knot, solid (but not too bold) color with a conservative repeating pattern. No wool or knit ties and stay away from tie bars, pins, etc. The few partners who tied half-windsor knots were in non-US offices or pretty young.

Shirt: White, pressed broadcloth with 2.5" or 3" point collar and traditional spread. Run away from anything with a wide spread, rounded tips, or buttons (although a few partners were sporting button-downs, I just can't imagine that is appropriate).

Also, please note, that while I believe my advice to be accurate it couuld be (1) just plain wrong or (2) a subconscious attempt to prevent you from wasting your life as Sullivan and Cromwell.

-- AdamCarlis - 11 May 2008

On Claire's original point, it must feel nice for interviewers - even the underlings - to see all the incorrectly attired law students and know that they (the interviewers) would never make such an embarrassing mistake.

Maybe the importance of clothing isn't from the perspective of the job applicant (who probably will get it wrong, and might come across as too eager if he gets it right), but from the perspective of the people who aren't just breaking in. They're already comfortable with the clothing they wear and they get to look down on those trying to break into their field and feel good about the fact that they're no longer making clothing mistakes. Of course, they also long for the day when they can make their own mistakes, trying to break into the next level up.

-- MichaelBerkovits - 11 May 2008

I'm a bit bothered by the fact that the reaction to Eben's commentary on class and clothing is, "well, what is the right clothing and how do I not screw up?" rather than "forget that, we're a new generation and we're going to forge our own path." Are you all really so thoughtlessly ambitious that you're going to let your employer dictate how many buttons go on your shirt??

-- KateVershov - 11 May 2008

Kate, I agree completely. I'm actually a little confused by all this "dress the part" stuff. I might be completely naive, or just plain wrong, but I feel like I see wildly successful people all the time who don't buy in to the mentality that the suit makes the man. It seems like that idea is a relic of old-world socialite etiquette, that is only going to grow less relevant with time. I'm sure, of course, that in some circles it will decline more slowly, and I have no doubt that the legal profession will be one of those circles. But even in the law, I don't see how it's possible that the rules of professional decorum could stay the same after our generation takes the helm. Not to say that Cravath is going to change it's dress code to bermuda shorts and t-shirt, just that some of these formalistic conventions are going to become less important.

To be fair, though, I have no real professional experience whatsoever, which I guess makes me totally unqualified to talk about professional etiquette.

-- JuliaS - 11 May 2008