This thread separates today's lecture, where Eben asks a question, from

our attempts at answering it, i.e. our collaborative attempts to frame questions about how to become lawyers that we can carry with us for the next two years ...

-- AndrewGradman - 9 Apr 2008

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This horizontal line separates this thread, where I attempt to permit us to collaborate to attempt to frame questions about how to become lawyers that we can carry with us for the next two years, from

this thread , where Makalika and I do that collaboratively. Go there.

-- AndrewGradman - 10 Apr 2008

I thought I would put some ideas down to hopefully continue others’ thinking about how to frame questions about how to become lawyers (at least private practice lawyers), and maybe jog others to continue this thread:

I sense heavy anxiety when students express concerns about what they won’t know that they should know when the rubber meets the road in real life application. For whatever this is worth, my suggestion is to try not to get psyched out about not really knowing anything about the law beyond basic concepts, research tools and methods, and analytical techniques that judges and lawyers use to parse a legal problem. You WILL learn your areas of law, but it will take time. It’s a process that everyone goes through, and you will find that you will never really stop learning the law (it’s an endless proposition). You are conscientious in applying yourselves – the fact that you got into Columbia is an indication of that, so you will find ways to learn the technical things you should be using when figuring out legal problems for others. On the other hand, I’ve seen lawyers who didn’t really know their areas that well, but they had something else significant to offer – political connections, or deep and broad marketing skills, and so they found someone else in their area who was technically sound, and they tag-teamed with that person.

Eben is right-on when he says that you should be selling knowledge, not time. And I think you will, over the years, observe yourself selling (or really offering) not just knowledge, but much more:

•You will find that the best way to help others (whether clients or the higher-ups you’re working for) is to first, put yourself in their shoes, so that you can see things from their point of view, then apply your knowledge. Every legal question has an answer, but only a portion of that answer is technical; the rest of the answer depends on to whom it is you are giving the answer and why.

I will stop here. I’d love to hear from others: what do you think matters when lawyers, specifically those in firms, apply themselves to their craft? You may be inclined to think about “new associate” duties, but you shouldn’t stop there – this is a life-long project we’re talking about here, no matter how many actual “jobs” you end up having, or in what capacity.

Well I agree with the questions Eben explained needed solving by our future jobs. From what I've gleaned, they are:

1.Making enough money to live comfortably, however we define it (I assume this includes paying off our loans) 2.Doing work we enjoy and find meaningful 3.Having a work/life balance we are happy with 4.Autonomy (I think is the most unnecessary criteria if we already have a work/life balance but I guess its possible to have one without the other).

These are a perfect set of criteria. I want to enjoy what I do, make enough money to afford a comfortable life while paying off debt, and have a life outside of work.

From here I'm looking for answers.

-- JulianBaez - 14 Apr 2008

I can't snuffle the will of the people, but wouldn't it make more sense not to use a thread whose caption says "don't use this thread?"

Or will the people speak, and snuffle the caption?

-- AndrewGradman - 14 Apr 2008

Oops, sorry, my fault, although in my defense, the following sentence was ambiguous to me, because I couldn't figure out which thread was "this thread": "This horizontal line separates this thread, where I attempt to permit us to collaborate to attempt to frame questions about how to become lawyers that we can carry with us for the next two years..." In other words, I thought you were ticking off a total of three threads in everything you wrote, when I guess you were referring to only two.

-- BarbPitman - 14 Apr 2008

Julian, I think the answers you are looking for are within you. Hope I don't make you self-conscious here, but after reading your paper about your experience in looking for summer employment, I realize that your go-getter attitude and energy will direct you as close as anyone to that equilibrium that you're looking for while pursuing the four criteria you listed. None or little of this may come with the first job or the second, though. But you'll keep looking. As I hope you know, all life is an experiment.

Just one thing about #4 -- I think this is a spectrum issue, which means that different people have different definitions of autonomy and hence different tolerances, needs, and wants in this area. I gather you are getting the concept of autonomy from Eben's lectures -- I may be wrong, but Eben projects a large amount of autonomy in his working life (we really shade into control issues here), so when he talks about autonomy, he may be talking about a whole different degree or type of autonomy than would fit you. All this by way of saying, I would look at autonomy as an open-ended proposition, and not get stuck on the idea that flat-out autonomy in every facet of a job is the only thing that will make you happy.

-- BarbPitman - 14 Apr 2008