-- RohanGrey - 30 Jan 2012

Very interesting article Rohan. Sums up a lot of thoughts that I (and I'm sure others) have about the process thus far. "students do more than accept the way things are, and ideology does more than damp opposition. Students act affirmatively within the channels cut for them... " I feel that a lot of the process is to fear pushing back or questioning why things are the way they are (ie how to view a case, what we should aspire too, and sometimes the way students are treated). A positive element @ Columbia (which is different from what the article mentions) is the idea that if you give a knee jerk moral argument about a case you'll be shamed. I think one of the purposes of law school is to stop students from cruching to their knee jerk reactions, but from what I've experienced so far I think as long as your knee jerk reaction can be connected to some legal element/theory professors welcome the comment.

In regards to Moglen's perspective on grades this quote shared similarities, "Grading as practiced teaches the inevitability and also the justice of hierarchy, a hierarchy that is at once false and unnecessary. If law schools invested some of the time and money they now put into Socratic classes in developing systematic skills training, and committed themselves to giving constant, detailed feedback on student progress in learning those skills, they could graduate the vast majority of all the law students in the country at the level of technical proficiency now achieved by a small minority in each institution... this hierarchy is then evident in the legal market."

Interesting to compare Kennedy's idea of schools incapacitating students by giving them training that is useful yet limited in the real world with the often repeated notion that even if a student wants to go into the public interest sector, it'd be better to go to a firm first and get the "right training". With the amount of money that students pay, why can't they get this "right training", right now?

"On one level, all of this is just high school replayed; on another, it’s about how to make partner... The problem is not whether hierarchy is there, but how to understand it, and what its implications are for political action," to this quote I would add that the problem is also to devise a way in which you maintain your sense of who you are.

r2 - 02 Feb 2012 - 04:39:59 - AbiolaFasehun?

I found this provocative and enjoyable. A few quick points (I apologize for the lack of formality and for some of the snark, but we all know formality is just a tool of the hierarchy):

1) My reaction to this article shares something of my reaction to the lectures in this class. It's not that bad! I've liked law school so far. I've liked the people, liked the material, liked New York.

2) How much of what Kennedy talks about has to do with most law students being in their early-to-mid twenties? I'd be curious to see if older students have had significantly different experiences.

3) "It's like high school"- I've repeatedly gotten that vibe about law school, for better or worse. I enjoyed high school but don't really want to repeat it.

4) Kennedy writes about this near the end of the article, but it's worth bringing up again -I think he may be dramatically over-estimating his own privilege as a white male Harvard professor. One of the pitfalls of analyzing class/hierarchy is seeing everything through that lens [or lense? never sure]. Especially if you are at the top of that supposed hierarchy.

5) Is it true that law professors are mean to their secretaries? People who are mean to their secretaries are horrible.

6) Abiola, I agree strongly with your last point. This is especially an area where I'd be curious if older students feel differently.

-- ShakedSivan - 02 Feb 2012