I don't know what 'refactor' means, but since this has grown frustrating and confusing, I'm replacing the entire thread with a straightforward summary that does not resort to referencing Wikipedia, historical analogy, Poland in the 50s, Robspierre, or any other pretensions. I never meant to write anything complicated or argumentative.

1) I am not writing about what Arnold thought. I am writing about what he made me think of.

2) From Tuesday's class I took away the following: according to EM, the libertarian argument that TG and LS gave for not saving Lehman (government cannot or should not interfere) was a myth covering their corrupt efforts to save AIG and benefit their own interests.

3) We should be and will be encouraged to a state of outrage when confronted with situations like #2 (and any number of similar miserable human events).

4) But, if we make choices about how to live our lives solely based on our outrage, we risk replacing one intolerable human failure with another. If we are to be happy, we will need positive energy and positive goals, instead of simply being against things. (We want to know what is just and create what is just, rather than tearing down what is unjust, because we can replace it with something equally unjust).

5) Knowing injustice when we see it is easy. Identifying and implementing positive justice is very very hard.

6) But after all, that's what we have two more years to think about.

-- AndrewCase - 13 Feb 2009

Likewise, my response was a simple one, addressed to Andrew's point #4 above: simply being against things might not be such a bad thing after all.

I followed Andrew's lead and itemized my points, too, for the sake of clarity (for both myself and others). Andrew, if I've mischaracterized any of your points, please feel free to comment or edit.

1) We all carry notions of what a just society looks like and how to bring it about. These notions vary widely from one person to another.

2) Andrew suggested that these notions form for each of us as reactions to the injustices prevailing in our particular time and place; their variety reflects the variety of our formative experiences. I think he's right.

3) Andrew also suggested, on a related note, that the all political states depend at bottom on oppression, i.e., injustice. I pointed out that this is true of most non-state organizations as well.

4) If my goal is to do justice, (2) and (3) together present a problem: my efforts to implement positive justice, if they meet with any success, will likely only lead to new and unforeseen injustices.

5) One potential response is to avoid this difficulty altogether by simply remaining a perpetual critic of particular injustices, and to leave building things to others.

I'm not at all convinced this is the best response, or even a particularly good one; I'm just curious about what others think.

-- MichaelHolloway - 13 Feb 2009

Thank you Michael. I think we're on the same page now.

-- AndrewCase - 13 Feb 2009

Michael, could you draw out #3 a bit? I'm not quite sure what you are saying, and on the surface, I disagree with that assertion.

I also am not sure that #4 is so self evident. From of view that we live in a relativist society, then yes, clearly Newton's 3rd law will apply. But I think there are ways of implementing justice that present an overall decrease in societal injustice.

I am an extremely cynical person, but #5 is a bit too much for me; it's reminiscent of those people who don't vote because 'both candidates stink' or 'I don't want to choose the lesser of two evils'. Decisions are made by those who show up, and while there are negative effects of any action, simply staying on the sideline does not seem to be a reasonable solution.

-- AaronShepard - 13 Feb 2009